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Jörg Rhiemeier, On 03/08/2012 18:40:
> On Friday 03 August 2012 09:26:02 R A Brown wrote:
>> but I think what attracted me most to Liva (which,
>> for those who don't know it, is a loglang) was its
>> phonology.
[...]
>> But revisiting
>> this, I'm not so happy about his 'laterals'. The IPA chart
>> gives symbols for his dental/alveolar, palatal and velar
>> laterals, the spaces for labial (and labiodental) lateral is
>> blanked out, meaning the sound is not humanly possible.
>> Claudio described his 'labial lateral' thus: "[the sound] is
>> obtained by putting the tongue tip between the lips and
>> pronouncing a sort of 'L'."
>
> An elegant, symmetric system that fails at the limits of the
> human articulatory tract. There is no way fixing that - you
> have to choose one of the following three:
>
> 1. Include an abstract "phoneme" that nobody can pronounce.
> 2. Break the symmetry by filling in a phoneme that doesn't
> really fit its place in the grid.
> 3. Leave a gap in the grid (which also breaks the symmetry).
>
> Such problems tend to crop up in conlangs which try to be more
> regular than practical.
Claudio also says that the "more rigorous" realization of this phoneme would be as a nonlingual lateral in which the lips are the active articulator. He supposes, incorrectly, that laterality requires airflow around both sides of a midsagittal occlusion (rather than just at least one side), and hence that this realization would be difficult, but in fact that's not a requirement of laterality and the sound is easy to produce, tho acoustically I don't think it's any different from a bilabial approximant. (Liva's "Laterals" could perfectly well be renamed "Approximants".)
I see that Ray said much of this a year ago
<http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1108a&L=conlang&P=1414>.
--And.
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