On Fri, 19 May 2000, James Chandler wrot:
> Pierpaolo rote:

> >> > Of how i assume the Esp diphthong uj is supposed to be pronounced.
> >
> >That is, you assume as correct a pronunciation which is impossible
> >to pronunce, and then complain that it is difficult to pronunce. >Hmmm...
>
> In the absence of any precise indications of how this diphthong (and the
> other Esp diphthongs) is to be pronounced, i have to assume that it is
> intended to have a starting point of [u] and end in a j-glide.  That is, it
> is the diphthong that, if it existed in Eng, would be transcribed by british
> linguists as [uI], and by american linguists as [uj].
> Are you able to give me any better indications as to how this sound is
> supposed to be pronounced?

I see nothing wrong in this summary.

> >I think that you are greatly exaggerating your difficulties.
>
> I am probably best placed to judge that.

True.

> >It includes seven (distinctive) vowels (in Firenze and Roma dialects,
> >only five in most other dialects). If you count the diphtongs then you get
> >another number (which I don't know).
>
> True, but are any of the diphthongs phonemes?

Are you asking if there are pairs of words differentiated only  by the
presence/absence of a diphtong?  If so, yes: "viola".  With the diphtong
is a musical instrument or a flower. Without the diphtong is from the verb
"violare", and it means 'he/she/it violates'.  I can come up with a ton of
examples if you give me some time.

> > > It is not on a par
> > > with the Eng dipthongs, which have a quite independent phonemic status.
> >
> >IMHO, this is just a matter of definitions.  But, even if you were rigth
> >on this point, what does this demonstrate?
>
> It would demonstrate that Esp speakers are forced to make distinctions that
> It speakers do not make.

We make the distinction.  And when in Italian the letter J was used as a
semivowel this different pronunciation was also reflected in the spelling
of words, i.e. "bui" was spelt "buj".


> >Let's suppose that En and It diphtongs are the same. Then the uj is
> >pronunceable.  If it's hard for you, you have to practice more.  For
> >example, there are many sounds in Eo that are difficult for Italians.
> >We need some practice for pronuncing 'sl' or 'sc' or 'h' or 'hx'.
>
> These examples are easily dealt with.  Italians will find a voiced [z]
> easier before /l/, and this is allowed in Novial.  The cluster sc is avoided
> in Ido and Novial, as is the phoneme /x/.  This leaves h: but wasnt it you
> who was defending italians ability to pronounce it??

We need some practice.  Which is different from "is impossible" and even
from "it's hard".


Must go now.

Gxis,
  Pierpaolo

--
Shteletiston oni batas, shtelegiston oni shatas.