----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Mills" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: Case and conjugation names (for YACL)


> Carlos Thompson wrote:
>
> > The language is chiefly SVO, but sentences can also be easily SOV or
VSO.
> >
> > Nouns might have several cases, whose names are somehow arbitrary here:
> >
> > 1. a nominative/absolute case, which is how the word appears as subject
in
> > SVO and SOV constructions.
> >
> > 2. an accusative case, used for the object when they are affected by the
> > verb.
> >
> > 3. an ergative case, used by the object when they are performing the
verb.
> >
> > 4. a dative case, used when they object is the focus of the action of
the
> > verb.
> >
> > 5. an ablative case, used when the object causes the action of the verb,
> but
> > does not acts it.
> >
> > Verbs are conjugated, not to the person of the subject but to how they
are
> > related to the subject:
>
> This sounds somewhat like a Philippine-type focus system,
> but with more overt case marking....Usually the verb is first,
> with the appropriate marker, then the subject/focus with a
> special marker (or "trigger"), then the ancillary arguments,
> usually with "oblique" markers of some sort..

yes, when I came to the idea it seems that it was some kind of trigger
system.

[...]
> > conjugation 4. Means that the subject is provoking (but not
> > causing) the verb.
> Would this be instrumental?  You don't give any exs....

Yes.  I have the concept more or less clear in my mind, but as this is not a
construction in the languages I know I cannot quite come to an example.
Probably a close example are the "for" cases in English:
  I did it for her = she-abs do-4 I-erg
or some command: "she made me do it" (same gloss).

This would also be the role ofa catalyzer in chemistry.
  spray_deodorants-abs break_down-4 ozone_layer-acc

> Following on the Philippine model, you could also include
> locative and instrumentals.  Maybe even, as you suggest,
> a genitive focus-- not sure how that would work, but it
> sounds interesting---
>
> "We visited John's house" > something like "John's was
> the house we visited" (awkward in Engl.)--
> John-G(focus/subj)  visit-G house-?? we-??

Hmmm.  Not sure if this is how it would work.  I still have a few things to
round up the idea, and how the cases relate to both verbs and other nouns.

> > conjugation 0. Means that the verb is not clarifying
> > the relationship with the subject: used mainly in
> > VSO constructions.
> I don't quite understand this.

Basically when the verb gets the focus.

> > Example:
> >
> > The house burns:
> > 1) house-abs burn-2
> > 2) burn-0 house-acc
> Would these correspond roughly to:
> 1. the house burnt down
> 2. (someone) burnt down the house

more like  2. burning took the house down

> (snips)
> > John gives Mary a book:
> > 1) John-abs give-1 Mary-dat book-acc (etc.)
> > 2) Mary-abs give-3 book-acc John-erg (etc.)
> > 3) book-abs give-2 Mary-dat John-erg (etc.)
> > 4) give-0 Mary-dat book-acc John-erg (etc.)
> >
> 1,2,3 are clear; what would 4 correspond to in Engl. or Spanish??

4) Giving to Mary the book John did... or something like that.
4a) give-0 John-erg book-acc Mary-dat
  = Diole Juan el libro a María

-- Carlos Th