> Date:    Wed, 14 Jan 2004 21:29:35 +0100
> From:    Christophe Grandsire <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The phrase 'I'd like...'
>
> >I have a question for Spanish-speakers (L1 and otherwise)
> >about the subjunctive and the conditional: is it common to
> >substitute one for the other? In my dialect it's become
> >increasingly common to hear "si" + conditional instead of
> >"si" + subjunctive. It really grates on my ears, especially
> >when supposedly educated people profer such syntax. ;)
>
> Well, this awful and deplorable phenomenon doesn't happen only in
Spanish.=
> In French, the indicative imperfect after "si" (use where Spanish would
use=
> the subjunctive imperfect) is sometimes replaced by the conditional,
which=
> really grates on my ears too. It's not even a dialectical phenomenon,
just=
> something like a fashion trend, which annoys me even more.

It happens in spoken Italian as well. The imperfect subjunctive is often
replaced by the past conditional - perhaps it's a pan-Romance phenomenon;-)

> Date:    Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:51:45 -0500
> From:    "Douglas Koller, Latin & French" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Ear-grating ingrates (was: Re: The phrase 'I'd like...')
>
> Ah, mais en anglais aussi. "If I would have known, I wouldn't have
> done that." seems to be gaining currency in some circles over "If I
> *had* known, I wouldn't ......". Fingernails down a blackboard for
> me. Maybe it's an anglicisme gone horribly wrong in other Eurolang
> countries.

Well, I wouldn't think so... it's a very old habit in spoken Italian and in
Italian dialects, at least...

> Date:    Wed, 14 Jan 2004 17:22:28 -0500
> From:    "Douglas Koller, Latin & French" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: La Logique du conditionnel (was: Re: The phrase 'I'd like...')

> Actually, isn't French the odd man out here? Of the languages we've
> been discussing, most have something subjunctivish in the if-clause,
>
> si fuera (estuviera?) sano (de buena salud?),
> wenn ich gesund wäre,
> if I were healthy,
>
> even English (while I realize that "If I was healthy," and "If I were
> healthy," are collapsing in modern usage, the "were" points to
> simpler, happier, more subjunctive times). I'd be all over it if the
> French had something (if we're talking satisfaction here) like:
>
> Si je fusse sain (en bonne santé), je serais heureux.

Which is the rule in Italian: _se fossi sano sarei felice_, whereas many
actually say: _se sarei sano sarei felice_; _se ero sano ero felice_ (with
two impf. ind.) is both less irritating and more widespread, I think.

> But imperfect subjunctive is *quite well* on the way out in French,
> so unless I'm handed the reins of the Académie Française, I shan't
> hold my breath. "Si je serais," ? <cringe>. Indeed, deplorable (no
> offense to your pal). Meanwhile the Esperanto sentence causes me no
> indigestion, since subjunctive forms don't exist ("Se mi estis sana,
> mi estus felicxa."? Blech!). I doubt logic has much to do with it.

Me too. It's just something formal, IMO. The standard language selects one
option and rules out the others- period. I see no particular reasons why one
form should be chosen and the others rejected, though.

Luca