Quoting Ray Brown <[log in to unmask]>:

> On Saturday, January 29, 2005, at 07:13 , Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
> > Quoting Ray Brown <[log in to unmask]>:
> >
> >> It is quite clear from Philip's mail that Swedish does not have /x/; it
> >> is
> >> just that some varieties of Swedish have [x] as a realization of the
> >> phoneme /S/, while in other Swedish speaking areas it is realized as [s`
> >> ]
> >> or [s\].
> >
> > I don't see how that's clear at all. How do we determine that a phoneme
> > that the
> > majority pronounces as [x] is, in fact, /S/? Especially when those who
> > don't
> > mostly use [s`] or [s\] rather than [S]?
>
> I really do not want to get into an argument about at what stage during a
> sound change, you change from using one phonemic symbol to another. But I
> think I may be excused in view of:

I think that in this case the question is, how long after a sound change do you
continue to use the old phonemic symbol. :)

You need not excuse yourself. My problem isn't with you, but with the
traditional phonemic representation of Swedish, which I think is in urgent need
of updating. Maybe there *are* updated ones in use - I've not read any Swedish
phonology published recently.

Some comments ...

[snip]
> Not only did Philip not correct my use of /S/, he also used it himself. In
> his mail [x], [s`] and [s\] are shown as _phonetic_ symbols. Philip is
> Swedish-speaking, I am not.
[snip]
> I have only your & Philip's descriptions to go on. If I have drawn the
> wrong conclusions, I am sorry - but in view of the evidence presented to
> me, I do not think my conclusion was unreasonable.

We're using the traditional conventions here, me with constant little hints I do
not like it. BP wrote in another mail that he'd consider /x/ and /C/ excellent
ASCII representations of the 'sj' and 'tj' phonemes - I'd be in full agreement.

[snip]
> [Back to Andreas' email of Jan. 29th}
> > (Yes, I've got something personal against denoting this phoneme as /S/.)
>
> That was not clear before.  I think I may have inadvertently stepped into
> an area of inter-Swede disagreement - if so, I want no part part in it.

I figure you have!

My personal problem is that, in my lect, the 'tj' phoneme is not [s\] but [S].
Denoting a phoneme that is not pronounced as [S] as /S/ when there is a
separate phoneme pronounced as [S] strikes me as a terrible state of affairs.

                                                            Andreas