2009/2/2 Jens Wilkinson <[log in to unmask]>:
> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 7:03 PM, MacLeod Dave <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm saying that structure is the most decisive factor. Some languages
>> are exceptions like Chinese with all the extra time spent learning the
>> hanzi, but if you look at the list you can see that besides those
>> exceptions a difficult structure trumps similar vocabulary. Vocabulary
>> is important too, but I've noticed that a lot of people tend to just
>> ignore the fact that a lot of people from different linguistic
>> backgrounds are going to have more difficulty with getting used to
>> syntax than people with linguistic backgrounds that are closer. And
>> yes, that includes creoles. They have an easier structure but there's
>> still a lot to get used to.
>
> I really don't agree that "structure trumps vocabulary." I think that
> in learning a language, the vocabulary is the most difficult task, and
> that is largely what makes languages like Japanese much more difficult
> for English speakers than learning French.

Haven't you ever noticed though that with a language like French
there's always something subtle that makes the vocabulary just a bit
more difficult to pin down than something like Japanese? Sometimes you
get a feeling of false fluency with a language with similar vocabulary
that doesn't quite pan out in reality (when you actually have to use
it, not just understand it) whereas with something like Japanese you
learn a word once and you're good. I've noticed the same thing with
Turkish where a word like deniz (sea) is really easy to learn, but the
endless permutations of mar vs. mere and all the rest mean that I
spend a lot of time making sure that I have the right word when
writing it in another language.

> But if you are criticizing
> people for "ignoring" structural issues, then I'm in complete
> agreement. I don't want to play down the importance of structure; it's
> just that I don't agree with you that it's more important than
> vocabulary.

Okay. But it really does trump vocabulary. In the two extreme examples
I showed you before don't forget that with a language with 100%
similar structure and 0% vocabulary you can still draft a letter to
the President of France starting on day 1 if you want, and read the
response with perfect accuracy. With the other language even though
it's made up of all English words it's going to take a loooong time
before you know that you've gotten it down just right. Vocab alone
just takes a certain amount of time to get used to, whereas a
completely different structure is something that sometimes is never
learned without a real conscious effort to understand how it works.

>
> The reason that I like the creole structure is that creoles have
> nearly always emerged (for historical reasons) between superstrate and
> substrate languages that are from different language families. So my
> supposition is that they represent the easiest way of creating mutual
> understanding for people speaking languages with different structures.
> I wouldn't argue it is a perfect solution, but in my mind, it's the
> best we have.

Probably. I'm just wondering when the structural worldlangers are
going to start coming out of the woodwork accusing the present crowd
of pandering to the SVO crowd without any thought to trying to be a
"real" world language. I don't know if you do a lot of
Japanese-English translation but translating between those two (along
with Turkish/Korean/etc.) is an entirely different matter than two
languages with a similar word order. With the latter you generally
proceed by going either one word at a time or one sentence fragment at
a time, but with the former you have to first go over the entire
sentence and then plan out how the translation is to be written. That
means that with a worldlang you'll still have people of Indo-European
backgrounds easily taking their native tongues and making few changes
to structure to make themselves understood in the L2, while others
like Japanese and the rest still struggle with translating long
sentences. I'm thinking of ones like these as local governments
translate their pages into the world L2:

市域全体を概観すると、山地・丘陵を三方の周縁とし、東へ流れる浅川を中心に、八王子盆地と呼ばれる東にひらけた半盆地状の扇状地をなしている。



>
>
> --
> Jens Wilkinson
> Neo Patwa (patwa.pbwiki.com)
>



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