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CONLANG  May 2009, Week 4

CONLANG May 2009, Week 4

Subject:

Re: The art of conlang critique (was Re: how to tell when you're conlang's complete-an idea)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 28 May 2009 22:02:39 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (157 lines)

Hallo!

On Wed, 27 May 2009 13:52:45 -0700, Sai Emrys wrote:

> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>  
wrote: 
> > There are many things that occur in only very few natlangs and
> > are nevertheless perfectly naturalistic, and even if it doesn't
> > occur in any known language, doesn't necessarily mean that it is
> > unnaturalistic (while on the other hand, if it occurs in just
> > *one* natlang, that is sufficient to award it with the hallmark
> > of naturalism).
> 
> These seem to me to be different phrasings of what I said - having an
> occasional rare feature is common, unattested != necessarily
> unnatural, and attestedness defines at least the outside fringes of
> what is 'natural but unusual'.

Yes.  As I said before, to give an example from my main conlang,
I know of no natlang precedent for the degree-of-volition marking
system of Old Albic, but I have seen things that get close, and
I feel that there is nothing unnatural about it - it may be very
rare, but it is certainly possible.

> > However, "exotic"
> > features should not be overused - if you combine 20 features
> > each of which occurs in less than 1% of the world's languages,
> > you are probably heading in the wrong direction.
> 
> I'd phrase this more neutrally, and say simply that if you do so, and
> those 1%s are mutually independent (rather than clustering), then your
> result is extremely unusual / weird for a natural language. If that's
> your thing, fine, if not, change it. :-P

Sure.  There is nothing wrong _per se_ with "kitchen sink" conlangs,
but one *should* be aware of what he's doing.  A language with 20
independent features which each occur in less than 1% of the world's
languages is not necessarily a bad conlang; indeed, it can be very 
interesting.  It is just that I personally prefer keeping "weirdness"
to a more moderate level.

> > * taxonomic vocabulary (as in the 17th-century "philosophical"
> >  languages)
> 
> One has to caveat this one to say that there are frequently clusters
> of words that are similar both semantically and formally, as well as
> things like triconsonantal root systems which have forms that are
> more-or-less regular transformations of those root meanings.
> 
> But a true multilevel taxonomy is a different thing.

Certainly, many, if not all, languages have word families where dozens
of semantically related words are derived from the same root, and this
happens *a lot* in Semitic languages, for instance.  Yet, taxonomic
conlangs such as Dalgarno's or Wilkins' go much further and try to
abolish arbitrariness in word formation by deriving all words from a
single universal taxonomy of idea, and this is not without problems.
At any rate, I would say that it is unnatural.

> > * stack-based syntax (as in Fith)
> > * implementation of a scheme of formal logic
> 
> Aww. :'-(
> 
> :-P

Well, they *work*, but I wouldn't expect any of these in a human
language.

> > There are probably many more, not to mention languages of
> > non-human beings that lie entirely outside human possibilities
> > of articulation or perception (e.g., ultrasonic languages).
> 
> This of course brings up the question of what makes for a naturalistic
> language for non-humans.
> 
> Do we assume the same psychological-ish universals? The same things
> re. economies of features (as you mentioned above)? Anything?

The problem is that we have no data.  We know only *one* language-
using species (our own), and thus simply do not know what languages
of other sapient species may look like.  We can only speculate that
they would be similar to ours in certain regards (such as having
phonologies that make economic use of phonetic features, and all that).
When designing a bizarre non-human conlang, one can indeed always say,
"It may be weird for us, but it is perfectly natural to them", and
there is no way to prove that wrong.

> > As I have said before, if, just for an example, the Afroasiatic
> > family had died out without trace (or evolved in a very different
> > direction), most linguists would consider a morphology in which
> > the lexical meaning of a word is encoded in three consonants
> > between vowels are infixed to make concrete word-forms at least
> > very weird, if not unnatural.  But we know that it happened in
> > Afroasiatic, so we know that it is not unnatural.
> 
> Indeed. And Alex gave me the example that clicks are rare enough that,
> had they not happened to exist, we might consider unnatural.

Yes.  Clicks are indeed rather weird, and if there weren't languages
using them in Africa, we'd think they could never occur in natlangs.

> > Second, there are features that are prescribed by the limits of
> > what humans can produce, perceive and process.  For instance, no
> > human language uses sounds humans cannot hear ;)
> 
> Except for those that deaf people can't hear, and people with cleft
> palates can't produce well. ;-)

Of course.  I was thinking of "normally" developed humans without
such conditions.

> One could easily imagine (or even cite) cases where local populations
> of humans happen to have such a variation in high enough concentration
> that the language they use as a group compensates for it. (Martha's
> Vineyard is canonical here.)

I am not sure what you mean.  Do you mean a population where a
specific disorder or inability is so widespread (e.g., due to
inbreeding) that they change their L1 to accomodate for that?
This would indeed be imaginable.

> > Finally, there are things which *could* occur in human languages
> > but *do not*, for whichever reason.  It is likely that many of
> > the universals discussed by linguistis fall into this category.
> 
> Which ones? To me, this is the interesting category, because it's the
> set of things to try to do. ;-)

I don't know.  I am not a professional language typologist or
language psychologist.  Indeed, the "unattested but possible"
category is of particular interest to conlangers, both naturalistic
(exploring unattested combinations of attested features, evolving
languages which could have evolved but didn't [I am thinking of
conlangs such as Brithenig here]) and non-naturalistic (trying out
radical departures from natlangs, such as logical languages or
speedtalks).

> > I would always be careful with such adjectives as "ideal" or
> > "optimal".  There are usually many ways to meet the design
> > criteria one sets for a project, and it is hard to say which
> > solution is the best.  As you say, you usually get trade-offs
> > between conflicting goals.
> 
> Correct. Which is why it is non-exclusive (there will be many 'ideal'
> or 'optimal' languages for any given valuation, due simply to the
> large number of choices that are entirely arbitrary and
> value-neutral), as well as valuation-dependent (one can't evaluate
> which is better without *first* determining where to set that
> trade-off preference).

Yes.  As I said several times, each conlang ought to be gauged
against its design goals (express or implied) set by the author.
This should be, I think, the very first rule of conlang critique.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf

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May 2010, Week 4
May 2010, Week 3
May 2010, Week 2
May 2010, Week 1
April 2010, Week 5
April 2010, Week 4
April 2010, Week 3
April 2010, Week 2
April 2010, Week 1
March 2010, Week 5
March 2010, Week 4
March 2010, Week 3
March 2010, Week 2
March 2010, Week 1
February 2010, Week 4
February 2010, Week 3
February 2010, Week 2
February 2010, Week 1
January 2010, Week 5
January 2010, Week 4
January 2010, Week 3
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December 2009, Week 5
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May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
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July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
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October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
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August 2004, Week 1
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 1
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
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September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
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February 2001, Week 1
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January 2001, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
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September 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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