On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Paul Roser <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 08:51:18 -0500, Matthew Turnbull <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> >Indeed the trill is voiceless, and the now that I think about it, it does
> >have a kind of growly quality to it. Jorayn is designed for human
> speakers,
> >and there are only a couple of consonants that use the "uvular" voice, the
> >most common one I transcribe as [ʀ͡r] in IPA and [ R\r)] in CXS, it's
> >unvoiced, but behaves as a voiced sound
> >
> >On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:28 AM, And Rosta <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >> Paul Roser, On 06/08/2009 06:08:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:54:37 -0500, Matthew Turnbull <[log in to unmask]
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I'm considering
> >>>> reanalyzing certain co-articulated consonants as voice distinctions,
> >>>> where the voicing is provided by a co-articulated uvular trill.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> there's no symbol or diacritic for uvular trilling as a sound source
> >>> mostly because, I suspect, no natlang does this, and also because even
> if a
> >>> human language was found that had all voiced sounds occurring with
> voiced
> >>> uvular trills, the voicing would still be seen as underlying both the
> >>> anterior sound and the uvular trill (since uvular trills are not
> inherently
> >>> voiced).
> >>>
> >>
> >> But the idea makes sense if the trill is voiceless -- it yields a kind
> of
> >> angry feline growl that can be accompanied by labial and apical
> >> articulations. A minute of experiments with this suggests that the
> voiceless
> >> trill would vary with scrapey dorsal fricatives. Perhaps this is how the
> >> human vocal tract would attempt to speak Reptile Martian.
> >>
> >> --And.
> >>
>
> I hadn't gotten that it was supposed to be voiceless, in which case,
> coarticulated uvular
> trilling (or friction) could be viewed as a sort of voicing. I can produce
> at least /i, E, u, O,
> a/ with just voiceless uvular trill/friction, though some vowel contrasts
> might not be as
> robust as they'd be voiced. I can readily make a four-way contrast in
> trills between
> voiced, voiceless, breathy voiced (murmured) and uvular, as well as one
> that
> coarticulates an apical trill with epiglottal trilling, although that is a
> bit rough on the
> throat.
>
> This now reminds me that I dimly recall seeing a note in the back of the
> grammar of
> some Papuan or Central American language that uses uvular trilling in
> conjunction with
> something else as an onomatopoeic word, but can't recall the word or the
> language. I do
> recall that they simply gave the transcription of the word and noted the
> uvular trilling in
> the text.
>
> Is Jorayn new? The coarticulated apical/uvular trill sounds familiar, but I
> can't place the
> conlang it comes from (represented by <H> if memory serves...)
>

No, not really new, I started it in 2005 I think, and the most common words
with the coarticulated trill are the numerals, which I might write as in (1)
orthographic <rrka>. It's a very early word, and I know that I've talked
about it and it's ilk, but I can't recall where, maybe on the XKCD forum

(1)r̥͡R̥ɐ̥͡R̥,  in IPA or maybe a more legible CXS of r_0R_0)6_0R_0)


>
> -Bfowol
>