2009/10/3 David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>:
> On Oct 3, 2009, at 11◊49 AM, Philip Newton wrote:
>
>> 2009/10/3 David Peterson <[log in to unmask]>:
>>>
>>> On Oct 3, 2009, at 2◊03 AM, Philip Newton wrote:
>>>
>>>> And secondly, the final consonant might be /x/ phone_m_ically, but I
>>>> would say that it's [X] phone_t_ically. In other words, you might get
>>>> away with using /x/ for the phoneme (under the principle of using the
>>>> least-marked symbol that doesn't contrast), but if you're going to be
>>>> phonetic, you probably want the proper symbol.
>>>
>>> I will defer to a native German speaker, but that's not right--at
>>> least not in any reference material I've found.  The only reference
>>> to this phenomena I can find anywhere is in Wikipedia
>>
>> What are the referents of "that" and "this phenomena"?
>
> The allophonic distribution of [x] and [X].  I can find no reference
> for that--just you and the unsourced comment in Wikipedia.

I don't think that German (at least, my 'lect of it) has phonetic [x]
at all -- the allophones of the phoneme (if indeed it is a single
phoneme) are [C] and [X].

So I would tend to mark the phoneme either as /C/ or as /X/, but I
think /x/ would also be acceptable for the same reason that I'd find
/r/ acceptable as phonemic notation for the initial consonant in
English "run" -- as I understand it, phonemic notation tends to use
less-marked symbols.  But just as I wouldn't use [r] in a phonetic
transcription of English, I'd say that [x] in a phonetic transcription
of German is wrong (again, at least for my 'lect).

I do note that both my Duden "Deutsches Universal Wörterbuch A-Z" and
the guide to German pronunciation in my Langenscheidt Greek dictionary
give [x] as the pronunciation of /x/ after back vowels, though I'm
skeptical about that.

After listening to _Sounds of the IPA_ again, I'm pretty sure that at
least in my 'lect, the uvular fricatives (voiceless and voiced/ are
the realisations of /x/-after-back-vowels and /r/, respectively.

I used to think that German /x/ was velar, but after reading some
descriptions and listening to some samples, I realised that at least
in my lect (and what I think I hear around me), this is simply not
true. The velar fricative sounds "weaker" to me than my /x/.

*shrug*

If you'd like/if it'd help, I can record myself saying some German
words with [X], [R], and/or [C] -- and perhaps what I imagine [x] and
[G] to be like.

Finally, [C] and [X] _feel_ fairly different to me, so I originally
considered them separate phonemes; now, though, I'm inclined to treat
them as allophones since they're almost in complementary distribution
-- and I think they're completely complementary if you include
morpheme breaks in the environment.

Even without that, there are only a couple of marginal
counter-examples, the only one of which I can recall is "Frauchen",
which has an unexpected [C] after a back diphthong; that's resolved if
you include the morpheme break in Frau#chen, since morpheme-initial
/x/ is [C], at least in native words. (And only seems to occur before
front vowels anyway; morpheme-initially before back vowels, "ch" is
usually /k/.)

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]>