On 17/01/2012 18:27, Sam Stutter wrote:
> I guess we're in an odd situation with quite a lot of
> proper nouns.
>
> With something like Oxford the origin of the name is
> pretty clear: ox + ford, but with Manchester it's a case
>  for etymology: fortified town + breast shaped hill.

Possibly - not certainly.

The name is derived from Old English _Mameceaster_, and the
second part is merely the Old English _ceaster_, a feminine
noun meaning "city."   This is ultimately derived from Latin
_castra_ (camp), plural of _castrum_ (fortress), but when
given to the name of the city meant no more than "city."

The Man-=/Mame- part of the name is ultimately derived from
the old Roman name _Mamūcium_ which we assume was a
Latinization of the contemporary British (Celtic) name.  But
whether the name is derived from _mamm-_ "breast" because
the original settlement was built on a breast-shaped hill,
or whether it is named from a river goddess _Mamma_
("mother") is disputed.

(The modern Latin _Mancunia_ BTW is derived from a  miscopying)

> AFAIK all anglophone place names (and, I'm guessing,
> most place names in the world?) can be traced back to
> some combination of lexicon words in either the native
> language or an invasive language:

No.  While undoubtedly all place names once had a meaning,
the meaning of many of the more ancient place names in
Britain and Europe are pre-IE and their meanings are lost in
the mist of time.

Also down the ages, we know names have been reformulated
according to folk etymology.  The town where I live is just
such an example.  It is now called "Leatherhead" and is
popularly thought to be derived from the many tanneries that
once (but no longer) existed in the area, i.e. the 'head' or
center of the leather trade.

This is, in fact, false.  The name is derived from Old
English _Leodridan_ <-- leode (people) + rida- (ride) =
place where people can ride through the river; and indeed it
was a place where there was a ford across River Mole.

But some hold that the Old English name itself was a piece
of folk etymology for an earlier British _Lētoritu-_ <--
lēto- "gray/grey" + ritu- "ford."

Some Celtic names may, of course, themselves have been
recast by folk etymology to give meaning to an earlier
pre-IE name    :)

In short, any idea of translating the original meaning of a
place name is fraught with problems.

>
> Then with surnames it's pretty much exactly the same
> issue. But with first names the etymology is often so
> remote as to be ignored.

As with place names!

[snip]
>
> With Jesus, the case is, who did the speakers of the
> language get the word "Jesus" from and how did they
> pronounce it? Presumably the first missionaries or early
>  Christians wouldn't have been too hot on linguistics?

All the European variants of the name are ultimately derived
from the Koine Greek Ἰησοῦσς /ie:su:s/, nominative, the stem
being Ἰησοῦ- /ie:su:/.  This was the Greek version of the
Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ /je:ʃu:ʕ/, which is what he would have been
called by his contemporaries.

I would expect my name to be rendered as closely as possible
to _Raymond_ in any other language. I would not wish for
some translation of "counsel-protection"!!

I really must finish off my half-written page on proper
names in TAKE.  FWIW in TAKE:
Manchester = Μαμοὐκιο
Jesus = Ἰησοῦ

-- 
Ray
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Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]