On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Idioms aren't broader meaning of words?  What are they then?
>
> Since you can use this verb to describe location of a large collection of
> items, from pencils to penicillin, I don't think I'd call it an idiom.
>

Rather than say the verb describes location, I'd say it expresses
existence. There is no origin, no recipient, no subject except "es", which
is merely a dummy subject with no referent. Yeah, it's an idiom, and it has
almost nothing in common with "geben", 'to give'.

stevo

>
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:07 PM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > This use of "geben" ('to give') is an idiom. It does not indicate a
> broader
> > meaning of the word.
> >
> > stevo
> >
> > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Casey Borders <[log in to unmask]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > German uses a much broader meaning of the verb to give. For example if
> > you
> > > wanted to know if there were a cinema nearby you would say:
> > >
> > > Gibt es ein Kino in der Nähe?
> > > Gives it a cinema in the nearby?
> > >
> > > Casey Borders
> > > On May 10, 2012 8:03 PM, "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" <
> > > [log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 10 May 2012 23:08, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > How have you mapped the semantic space in your conlangs? Are your
> > maps
> > > > > systematic, or did they just happen?
> > > > > --gary
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is something I'm paying a *lot* of attention to for Moten, which
> > is
> > > > why vocabulary building is so slow. As for how it happens, it's a
> > > > combination of conscious design and random chance :) .
> > > >
> > > > For instance, to take your "give" example, in Moten there are two
> > verbs:
> > > > _ja|zi|n_ and _joplej_. They both mean about the same thing:
> depending
> > on
> > > > which arguments they have, they can mean "give", "take", "get",
> > > "receive",
> > > > "put", "bring", etc. Basically, they have a general meaning of
> > > "transfer".
> > > > Both have exactly the same meaning, with only a single difference:
> > > > _ja|zi|n_ implies the transfer happens towards the speaker (i.e. from
> > > > listener to speaker or from third-party to listener or speaker), or
> in
> > a
> > > > way that benefits the speaker, while _joplej_ implies a transfer away
> > > from
> > > > the speaker (from the speaker to the listener or a third-party, or
> from
> > > the
> > > > listener to a third-party), or in a way that is detrimental, or at
> > least
> > > > neutral, to the speaker.
> > > >
> > > > Another example is the verb _istu|l_, which means "to call, to
> summon",
> > > but
> > > > can also mean "to bring along". The verb _jeksaj_ means primarily "to
> > > > touch", but it can also be used to mean "to hit, to run into, to meet
> > by
> > > > chance". The verb _jo|zemej_ combines "to eat" and "to drink" (Moten
> > > > doesn't make the distinction between those two). The verb _izgeboj_
> > means
> > > > "to work on sthg", but also "to tire from sthg" or "to suffer from
> > sthg".
> > > > Those last two meanings are also among the meanings of the verb
> > > _igmadevi_,
> > > > but that one means primarily "to get sick because of sthg, to wear
> off
> > > from
> > > > sthg" or even "to kill oneself with sthg".
> > > >
> > > > And then there are verbs that are similar to English ones in terms of
> > > > semantics, but swap the place of the arguments, like _iteo|l_: "to
> > > please,
> > > > to be liked by", _jelojmaj_: "to be thought of by", or
> _jelojmastu|l_:
> > > "to
> > > > be remembered by" (yeah, it's a compound of _jelojmaj_ and _istu|l_).
> > > >
> > > > And I can also mention the weird case of "to know", which doesn't
> have
> > > any
> > > > true equivalent in Moten. In Moten, the act of "knowing" something or
> > > > someone is usually indicated by putting the manner by which one came
> to
> > > > know in the perfect aspect. So if you know something because you
> > studied
> > > > it, you use the perfect of the verb _ivajagi_: "to study, to learn".
> If
> > > you
> > > > know a place because you've been there, you use the perfect of the
> verb
> > > > _izunlaj_: "to be located". If you know someone because you happened
> to
> > > > meet them once, you can use the perfect of _jeksaj_ mentioned above.
> > > There
> > > > *are* two verbs whose meanings come close to "to know", but they are
> > very
> > > > restricted in their semantics. Those verbs are _|li|n_: "to be aware
> > of"
> > > or
> > > > "to know by instinct" and _jolnesi_: "to be an expert in, to know by
> > > > heart".
> > > >
> > > > Something similar happens with "to meet". The verb _jeksaj_ is
> > restricted
> > > > to indicate chance encounters. For planned meetings, one uses instead
> > the
> > > > verb _ipe|laj_: "to see, to look at".
> > > >
> > > > As you can see, Moten does quite interesting things with the semantic
> > > > space, some somewhat similar to what happens in English, some quite
> > wild.
> > > > Some verbs have a wide semantic domain and cover various verbs in
> > > English,
> > > > while others only cover a fraction of the semantic space covered by a
> > > > corresponding English verb. And yet, it all feels very natural to me.
> > > > --
> > > > Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
> > > >
> > > > http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> > > > http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<
> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
> >.
>