Are all impersonal verbs idioms, then?



On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:12 AM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Patrick Dunn <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Idioms aren't broader meaning of words?  What are they then?
> >
> > Since you can use this verb to describe location of a large collection of
> > items, from pencils to penicillin, I don't think I'd call it an idiom.
> >
>
> Rather than say the verb describes location, I'd say it expresses
> existence. There is no origin, no recipient, no subject except "es", which
> is merely a dummy subject with no referent. Yeah, it's an idiom, and it has
> almost nothing in common with "geben", 'to give'.
>
> stevo
>
> >
> > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:07 PM, MorphemeAddict <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This use of "geben" ('to give') is an idiom. It does not indicate a
> > broader
> > > meaning of the word.
> > >
> > > stevo
> > >
> > > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Casey Borders <[log in to unmask]
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > German uses a much broader meaning of the verb to give. For example
> if
> > > you
> > > > wanted to know if there were a cinema nearby you would say:
> > > >
> > > > Gibt es ein Kino in der Nähe?
> > > > Gives it a cinema in the nearby?
> > > >
> > > > Casey Borders
> > > > On May 10, 2012 8:03 PM, "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" <
> > > > [log in to unmask]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On 10 May 2012 23:08, Gary Shannon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How have you mapped the semantic space in your conlangs? Are your
> > > maps
> > > > > > systematic, or did they just happen?
> > > > > > --gary
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is something I'm paying a *lot* of attention to for Moten,
> which
> > > is
> > > > > why vocabulary building is so slow. As for how it happens, it's a
> > > > > combination of conscious design and random chance :) .
> > > > >
> > > > > For instance, to take your "give" example, in Moten there are two
> > > verbs:
> > > > > _ja|zi|n_ and _joplej_. They both mean about the same thing:
> > depending
> > > on
> > > > > which arguments they have, they can mean "give", "take", "get",
> > > > "receive",
> > > > > "put", "bring", etc. Basically, they have a general meaning of
> > > > "transfer".
> > > > > Both have exactly the same meaning, with only a single difference:
> > > > > _ja|zi|n_ implies the transfer happens towards the speaker (i.e.
> from
> > > > > listener to speaker or from third-party to listener or speaker), or
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > way that benefits the speaker, while _joplej_ implies a transfer
> away
> > > > from
> > > > > the speaker (from the speaker to the listener or a third-party, or
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > listener to a third-party), or in a way that is detrimental, or at
> > > least
> > > > > neutral, to the speaker.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another example is the verb _istu|l_, which means "to call, to
> > summon",
> > > > but
> > > > > can also mean "to bring along". The verb _jeksaj_ means primarily
> "to
> > > > > touch", but it can also be used to mean "to hit, to run into, to
> meet
> > > by
> > > > > chance". The verb _jo|zemej_ combines "to eat" and "to drink"
> (Moten
> > > > > doesn't make the distinction between those two). The verb _izgeboj_
> > > means
> > > > > "to work on sthg", but also "to tire from sthg" or "to suffer from
> > > sthg".
> > > > > Those last two meanings are also among the meanings of the verb
> > > > _igmadevi_,
> > > > > but that one means primarily "to get sick because of sthg, to wear
> > off
> > > > from
> > > > > sthg" or even "to kill oneself with sthg".
> > > > >
> > > > > And then there are verbs that are similar to English ones in terms
> of
> > > > > semantics, but swap the place of the arguments, like _iteo|l_: "to
> > > > please,
> > > > > to be liked by", _jelojmaj_: "to be thought of by", or
> > _jelojmastu|l_:
> > > > "to
> > > > > be remembered by" (yeah, it's a compound of _jelojmaj_ and
> _istu|l_).
> > > > >
> > > > > And I can also mention the weird case of "to know", which doesn't
> > have
> > > > any
> > > > > true equivalent in Moten. In Moten, the act of "knowing" something
> or
> > > > > someone is usually indicated by putting the manner by which one
> came
> > to
> > > > > know in the perfect aspect. So if you know something because you
> > > studied
> > > > > it, you use the perfect of the verb _ivajagi_: "to study, to
> learn".
> > If
> > > > you
> > > > > know a place because you've been there, you use the perfect of the
> > verb
> > > > > _izunlaj_: "to be located". If you know someone because you
> happened
> > to
> > > > > meet them once, you can use the perfect of _jeksaj_ mentioned
> above.
> > > > There
> > > > > *are* two verbs whose meanings come close to "to know", but they
> are
> > > very
> > > > > restricted in their semantics. Those verbs are _|li|n_: "to be
> aware
> > > of"
> > > > or
> > > > > "to know by instinct" and _jolnesi_: "to be an expert in, to know
> by
> > > > > heart".
> > > > >
> > > > > Something similar happens with "to meet". The verb _jeksaj_ is
> > > restricted
> > > > > to indicate chance encounters. For planned meetings, one uses
> instead
> > > the
> > > > > verb _ipe|laj_: "to see, to look at".
> > > > >
> > > > > As you can see, Moten does quite interesting things with the
> semantic
> > > > > space, some somewhat similar to what happens in English, some quite
> > > wild.
> > > > > Some verbs have a wide semantic domain and cover various verbs in
> > > > English,
> > > > > while others only cover a fraction of the semantic space covered
> by a
> > > > > corresponding English verb. And yet, it all feels very natural to
> me.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> > > > > http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> > order from Finishing Line
> > Press<
> > http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> > and
> > Amazon<
> >
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
> > >.
> >
>



-- 
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.