AUXLANG List

Tiom sarkasme kiom mallonge...

Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo — 2013-05-21T23:32:29+02:00

Tiom sarkasme kiom mallonge...

Mi ?us legis la multevican, enuigan kaj regurdozan apologion de Esperanto en "ama kaj paca" komunikilo kiu ne permesas miajn opiniadojn per Esperanto. Do, mi decidis refari konatan moton de la esperantismo.

Jen la nova moto.

Ekzistas facila solvo al la monda lingvoproblemo. Al ?iu, sia lingvo. Al ?iuj... Ido. [...]

FW: [posta_Mundi] RE: MM, mini mesajes

James Chandler — 2013-05-18T09:18:11+01:00

http://postamundi.wikkii.com/wiki/MM_300_ling

Re: Grupi ortografiala "mf", "mp" e simila (texto kun korektiguri).

Paul Bartlett — 2013-05-15T14:05:48-04:00

On Wed, 15 May 2013 13:59:20 -0400, Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo
wrote:

> Grupi ortografiala "mf", "mp" e simila.
>
> Hola, Partaka, Rosto ed altri.

Dear Aleshandre Shavier Kasanova Domingo:

Please do the rest of us a favor. If you are replying or responding to a
message on the posta_Mundi mailing list, please do NOT send a copy to
AUXLANG if it is not also a response or reply to a message that has
appeared on AUXLANG. You have a habit of doing this, and it is annoying.
Thank you.

Re: Grupi ortografiala "mf", "mp" e simila (texto kun korektiguri).

Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo — 2013-05-15T19:59:20+02:00

Grupi ortografiala "mf", "mp" e simila.

Hola, Partaka, Rosto ed altri.
Me preferas verkifar filozofie kam disputar ortografie.
Per Ido ed altra eurokloni, me filozofios pri aferi ne linguala. La lekteri komprenos me e me ne esos sterila reformisto. Kande du idoparolanti deziras interkomprenesar, li interkomprenesas.
Teknike, ni ja konocas la solvuro. Ma, che mea verkaji per Ido, me ne emfazas la experimentalismo ortografiala, gramatikala, e tale cetere. Por diskutar cience ica detali helpolinguala experimentala, ni ja havas la listo ek Yahoo "IALlist-no-spam".
Exemple, me olim prizentis esayo per Ido pro la objektaleso de la etiko en forumo filozofiala per [...]

Re: Grupi ortografiala "mf", "mp" e simila (texto nur per Ido).

Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo — 2013-05-14T19:59:21+02:00

Grupi ortografiala "mf", "mp" e simila.

Hola, Partaka, Rosto ed altri.
Me preferas verkar filozofie kam disputar ortografie.
Per Ido ed altra eurokloni, me filozofios pri aferi ne linguala. La lekteri komprenos me e me ne esos sterila reformisto. Kande du idoparolanti deziras interkomprenesar, li interkomprenesas.
Teknike, ni ja konocas la solvuro. Ma, che mea verkaji per Ido, me ne emfazas la experimentalismo ortografiala, gramatikala, e tale cetere. Por diskutar cience ica detali planlinguala experimentala, ni ja havas la listo ek Yahoo "IALlist-no-spam".
Exemple, me olim prizentis esayo per Ido pro la objektiveso de la etiko en forumo filozofiala per [...]

Re: Grupi ortografiala "mf", "mp" e simila.

Alexandre Xavier Casanova Domingo — 2013-05-14T19:54:40+02:00

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-12T23:27:39-06:00

Sorry about the delay.

I had a lengthy response started, but then I thought I should chuck it
and do something more simple and direct.

To begin with, I'd like to point out (again) that I actually have
experience with ungendered languages. I even designed a few. So this
isn't ignorant bias but the result of experience: I changed views for
an actual reason. [...]

I kam Iker

Olivier Simon — 2013-05-11T09:03:56-04:00

I have subtitled into Sambahsa "I comme Icare" a French movie starring Y.Montand and inspired from the JFK case. I have chosen it because it takes place in a fictitious country :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCETy1DNDss&list=UUswe0pF_OnaXlUJdFzD2-mg&index=13

Olivier

Re: Languages & Values

Yauh Kah — 2013-05-09T05:47:30-07:00

Yeah the quoting bit-and-bobs is not working for me either…I’m used to romp about on forums where this works better. So I’ll try to respond to your post as a whole. My main issue is your statement that since an auxlang would be used quite a lot for translating from and to languages having gender-specific pronouns (and the quality of the translators would be uncertain) an auxlang better have a way of expressing those does not compute. If a constructed language cannot facilitate translators from various linguistic backgrounds to do their job, then the use of pronouns has not been [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-09T07:25:37+02:00

Risto Kupsala skrev 2013-05-08 22:22:
> 8.5.2013 22:31, Stephen Rice wrote:
>> On 5/8/13, Yauh Kah
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So my stance still is
>>> gender-neutral pronouns were or
>>> are not a issue because those
>>> systems are
>>> just as equal and valid from a
>>> linguistic point of view.
>> I haven't denied that as such. I
>> consider the presence of a neutral
>> pronoun useful--I have said so
>> from the beginning. What I
>> question is
>> the complete suppression of
>> gendered pronouns in auxlangs,
>> and I do so
>> [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-09T07:21:32+02:00

I'm doing a translation into
interlingua, so I'm thinking in it
more or less all the time, so I'll
write this in interlingua.

In le prime annos de esperanto on
faceva multe traductiones in le
lingua, justo pro evoluer lo. Ma
isto es le processo in multe
linguas national. Il ha un juvene
stadio quando on traduce classicos,
pro exemplo del linguas antique. Le
patre del litteratura svedese
voleva monstrar que le svedese pote
esser usate pro le tanto como le
linguas classic, e pro isto ille
presentava un poema in hexametro,
Hercules! Classicos de diverse
litteraturas se traduce in [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Jens Wilkinson — 2013-05-09T08:12:17+09:00

On 2013/05/09, at 4:31, Stephen Rice wrote:

>
>>
>
> I haven't denied that as such. I consider the presence of a neutral
> pronoun useful--I have said so from the beginning. What I question is
> the complete suppression of gendered pronouns in auxlangs, and I do so
> for practical reasons.
>
I would note that at least in my case, I am not advocating their suppression as their exclusion from the initial vocabulary. If people really want the word, it will be created, likely as a contraction of other words, and will stick. Because we [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Risto Kupsala — 2013-05-08T23:22:09+03:00

8.5.2013 22:31, Stephen Rice wrote:
> On 5/8/13, Yauh Kah wrote:
>
>> So my stance still is
>> gender-neutral pronouns were or are not a issue because those systems are
>> just as equal and valid from a linguistic point of view.
> I haven't denied that as such. I consider the presence of a neutral
> pronoun useful--I have said so from the beginning. What I question is
> the complete suppression of gendered pronouns in auxlangs, and I do so
> for practical reasons. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-08T13:31:53-06:00

On 5/8/13, Yauh Kah wrote:

> I doubt the image of the first christians as baby-eating freaks hampered
> their efforts of putting things in writing very much.

I never said it did. Actually, I never said most of the things you
imply that I've said; I'm not sure whether that stems from inattention
or exegetical perversity on your part, but it is becoming tedious.
Your claim was that differences in background made communicating
(trivial) concepts more difficult, which is trivially true; I
countered that Christians were greatly misrepresented within their own
culture. It had no direct bearing on [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-08T18:30:01+02:00

You can also compare modern Persian
which has possessive endings with
the verbs : swediam, e.g.

Kjell R

Re: Languages & Values

Yauh Kah — 2013-05-08T09:20:26-07:00

I recall having heard Luo languages (Nilo-Saharan) developing a noun class system resembling that of the Bantu languages (Niger-Congo) in the region. Ma'a/Mbugu likewise combines a Cushitic (Afroasiatic) morphology with Bantu morphology. So if that's possible I reckon so is a tense system or anything else belonging to closed classes such as function words, clitics and such which are directly influencing the deep basic structure of a language. Yauh My auxlang Kah: http://www.kwesho.com ________________________________ From: Kjell Rehnström To: AUXLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2013 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Languages & Values Just using my gutfeeling I think there is a [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-08T14:21:25+02:00

Just using my gutfeeling I think
there is a bidirectional process in
language. The speakers/users create
the language they need and they are
influenced by the languages they
use. A genitician or a stamp
collector will use terms that we
others don't know anything about.
The European languages have used
tences in a way that other
langauges don't have. Perhaps they
have not felt that need. But I
suspect that different tences might
have been borrowed from one
language to another. I don't have
any proof of that. It is merely a
hypothesis. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Yauh Kah — 2013-05-08T04:40:53-07:00

I agree, language is not the key or at least should not be the sole key. Linguistic prescriptivism or in a broader sense language politics have a tendency to backfire simply because society isn't gender neutral so sex-based words keep popping up. In the best case it is ignored and/or ridiculed -be it a genderless language or not- because it is perceived to be forced or innatural. The good news for us is that constructed languages don't run into this latter problem. Yauh My auxlang Kah: http://www.kwesho.com From: Kjell Rehnström To: AUXLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU Sent: Wednesday, May 8, 2013 12:41 PM Subject: Re: Languages [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-08T12:41:16+02:00

Finnish and Hungarian have one
pronoun for humans in the 3d
person. Their neighboring countries
have pronouns male and female
gender. The cultural differences
between the various cultures are
not too big, and I doubt that e.g.
women are treated in a much
different way in these countries as
compared to the neighbour countries.

So I think language is not
necessary the key. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Yauh Kah — 2013-05-08T02:40:30-07:00

I doubt the image of the first christians as baby-eating freaks hampered their efforts of putting things in writing very much. Somy stance still is gender-neutral pronouns were or are not a issue because those systems are just as equal and valid from a linguistic point of view. I have no problem with gender-specific pronouns or the choice for them, I have a problem with claims of gender-neutral pronouns being less specific, unclear or elegant. Yauh My auxlang Kah: http://www.kwesho.com From: Stephen Rice To: AUXLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2013 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Languages & Values On 5/7/13, Yauh Kah wrote: [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-07T15:27:30-06:00

On 5/7/13, Yauh Kah wrote:

> Oh yes, of course nowadays pretty much everybody is familiar with these
> principles and Mickey Mouse. But I'm fairly sure the first missionaries in
> Greenland had a harder time explaining some ideas than when Christianity
> reached the Armenians, a language having a gender-neutral pronominal
> system just like Inuktitut but having more familiarity with the structure of
> society and the environment described in the Bible. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-07T14:43:15-06:00

On 5/6/13, Yauh Kah wrote:

>>Arbitrary in what way? While it may be
> difficult to define or
>>quantify, I think most educated people know
> it when they see it. I
>>would suggest defining it as (1)
> communicating the desired idea (2)
>>concisely (without a lot of circumlocution)
> and (3) inconspicuously
>>(without means that distract from the
> message). [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Yauh Kah — 2013-05-07T00:27:05-07:00

Oh yes, of course nowadays pretty much everybody is familiar with these principles and Mickey Mouse. But I'm fairly sure the first missionaries in Greenland had a harder time explaining some ideas than when Christianity reached the Armenians, a language having a gender-neutral pronominal system just like Inuktitut but having more familiarity with the structure of society and the environment described in the Bible. An interesting piece on the first Bible translations in Inuktitut is http://prairiemessenger.ca/05_09_2012/RNSInuk_05_09_12.html Yauh My auxlang Kah: http://www.kwesho.com From: Kjell Rehnström To: AUXLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU Sent: Monday, May 6, 2013 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Languages & Values Just a short note. [...]

Re: Interlingua: Grammar and Method

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-07T09:13:56+02:00

I know about the special method of
Stan Mulaik, where he uses a
somewhat other method for
extracting vocabulary for
interlingua than Gode and the IALA
did. This poses an interesting
problem in interlinguistics where
Interlingua isn't the only example.
Thus, in the IED there is a lot of
material that never got into
Interlingua. Using that less used
material it is in fact possible to
write a version of Interlingua
which is very close to
Interlingue/Occidental, as it
generally appears in later issues
of Cosmoglotta. [...]

Re: Interlingua: Grammar and Method

Gleki Arxokuna — 2013-05-07T10:52:39+04:00

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 1:59 AM, Paul Bartlett wrote:

> Standard Average European

Heh, I found an article by Haspelmath (whose works i rate very high) which
even got into Wikipedia. I added notes in square brackets of whether each
feature is possible in Lojban but you can check it in your projects. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Jens Wilkinson — 2013-05-07T08:19:31+09:00

Actually, to broaden things further, there is a bigger issue of how to call people, which is natural because we spend much of our time talking about them.

In Japanese, there is no age-neutral way to say brother or sister, so compounds have to be used in cases where you need it. In English we had no accepted term for brothers and sisters together, so had to recruit a different term, sibling, with a different meaning originally, to fill in the space when statistics and forms came into use. With cousins we don't have the problem, because the term is [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Jens Wilkinson — 2013-05-07T07:56:55+09:00

This has already come up, so it may be superfluous, but English traditionally lacked an accepted neutral pronoun, so now "they" has been recruited, which is ok but we end up with three personal pronouns in the subject case alone, and four if you include "it." I'd rather use just one if it suffices. [...]

Re: Interlingua: Grammar and Method

Paul Bartlett — 2013-05-06T17:59:13-04:00

On Mon, 06 May 2013 16:32:40 -0400, Risto Kupsala
wrote:

> There's a new book (from 2012) called "Interlingua: Grammar and Method
> for the Use of the International Vocabulary as an International
> Auxiliary Language and to Increase Your Word Power" by Stanley A. Mulaik.
>
> I read a review about it in the most recent issue of Kanava (3/2013), a
> Finnish essay journal. [trim] [...]

Interlingua: Grammar and Method

Risto Kupsala — 2013-05-06T23:32:40+03:00

There's a new book (from 2012) called "Interlingua: Grammar and Method
for the Use of the International Vocabulary as an International
Auxiliary Language and to Increase Your Word Power" by Stanley A. Mulaik.

I read a review about it in the most recent issue of Kanava (3/2013), a
Finnish essay journal. The review is written by Juha Janhunen, the
professor of East Asian languages and culture in the University of
Helsinki. The review is really Interlingua propaganda and the contents
of the book itself is not discussed to any detail. The writer suggests
that Interlingua should be used in Europe, [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-06T22:27:11+02:00

Just a short note. I think I've
heard that there is sheep breeding
in Greenland nowadays.

And Christianity with all its
strange ideas has spread to lots of
people to whom it originally was
foreign. There is a slow
interchange of ideas. and people
learn by hearing different stories.
Take the Disney figures who are
well-known all over the world. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Yauh Kah — 2013-05-06T12:35:19-07:00

>Arbitrary in what way? While it may be difficult to define or >quantify, I think most educated people know it when they see it. I >would suggest defining it as (1) communicating the desired idea (2) >concisely (without a lot of circumlocution) and (3) inconspicuously >(without means that distract from the message). Arbitrary in the sense that one might simply not like the workaround and write it off as clumsy, like literally expressing the word “woman” or something like that, which 1) communicates the desired idea 2) concisely without a lot of circumlocution and 3) inconspicuously… oh well, it would [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-06T11:30:09-06:00

On 5/6/13, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> "But if eliminating "sexist" language confers no benefit, why bother? If
> you thought eliminating such terms would eliminate or reduce sexism, I
> might disagree with your accuracy, but at least you would have a clear
> purpose."
>
> Well, we know that the way we conjugate verbs influence how we save money
> for example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw3YTbubyjI), [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Mathieu Roy — 2013-05-06T18:08:13+02:00

"But if eliminating "sexist" language confers no benefit, why bother? If
you thought eliminating such terms would eliminate or reduce sexism, I
might disagree with your accuracy, but at least you would have a clear
purpose."

Well, we know that the way we conjugate verbs influence how we save money
for example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw3YTbubyjI), but as far as I
know, no such research have been extensively conduct about the
relation between language and sexism (am I wrong?). But even if there
wasn't such a correlation for languages using pronoun reflecting sex, I
still don't like to be "force" to specify the [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Olivier Simon — 2013-05-06T09:39:58-04:00

I agree with Steve; maybe the word "elegance" was wrong, rather something like "handiness".

I have invented too (though never published, and far less advanced than Sambahsa) three Elvish languages, whose 3° person pronoun only distinguishes between animate and inanimate.
When it comes to translate situations involving males and females, we always have to care that it remains clear whom is referred to, since the pronoun is the same for males and females. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-05T23:56:48-06:00

On 5/5/13, Yauh Kah wrote:

> Literary elegance is an arbitrary qualification. I think.

Arbitrary in what way? While it may be difficult to define or
quantify, I think most educated people know it when they see it. I
would suggest defining it as (1) communicating the desired idea (2)
concisely (without a lot of circumlocution) and (3) inconspicuously
(without means that distract from the message). [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Gleki Arxokuna — 2013-05-06T09:16:31+04:00

On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 2:48 AM, Mathieu Roy wrote:

> Thanks everyone for your input.
>
> Paul Bartlett said "Welcome. You will find that volume of posts goes up
> and down, so please be patient."
>
> Thanks. Anyway my free time goes up and down too :P
>
>
> Stephen Rice said "One of the primary uses of gender is to clarify
> referents."
>
> There's other (and better IMO) way to do it. As you've mentioned later for
> loglan.
>
>
> "So if you want to simplify translation, at least [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-05T23:11:00-06:00

On 5/5/13, Jens Wilkinson wrote:
> On 2013/05/06, at 6:01, Stephen Rice wrote:

>> But I wasn't talking about misunderstandings; I was talking about
>> literary elegance. Of course it's possible to make the necessary
>> distinctions, but can it be done unobtrusively? The value of short,
>> common words is that they are generally processed subconsciously: we
>> gain information without being distracted by something we must
>> consciously process. So "she" does a job that "female" absolutely
>> can't: it disappears in text while still conveying information. If the
>> language doesn't have such a feature, [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Yauh Kah — 2013-05-05T21:27:18-07:00

Literary elegance is an arbitrary qualification. I think. Also, it is an inherent problem when translating texts in general and literature specifically. That is whay Bible translations turn out completely ridiculous quite often in cultures that traditionally don't deal with sheep, myrrh and such. Literary elegance is not an option in such extreme cases. I doubt it should be in moderate, everyday ones. And no, the absence of gender does not eliminate sexism. The absence of sexism does. I don't recall where I claimed the presence of gender-neutral pronouns would eliminate sexism but in case I gave that impression: I [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Jens Wilkinson — 2013-05-06T12:33:42+09:00

On 2013/05/06, at 6:01, Stephen Rice wrote:

>
> But I wasn't talking about misunderstandings; I was talking about
> literary elegance. Of course it's possible to make the necessary
> distinctions, but can it be done unobtrusively? The value of short,
> common words is that they are generally processed subconsciously: we
> gain information without being distracted by something we must
> consciously process. So "she" does a job that "female" absolutely
> can't: it disappears in text while still conveying information. If the
> language doesn't have such a feature, importing it will stand out
> [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Mathieu Roy — 2013-05-06T00:48:46+02:00

Thanks everyone for your input.

Paul Bartlett said "Welcome. You will find that volume of posts goes up and
down, so please be patient."

Thanks. Anyway my free time goes up and down too :P

Stephen Rice said "One of the primary uses of gender is to clarify
referents."

There's other (and better IMO) way to do it. As you've mentioned later for
loglan. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-05T15:01:17-06:00

On 5/5/13, Yauh Kah wrote:

> I agree with you, Jens. I think one big (indo)eurocentric misconception is
> that gender is not expressed or picked up in languages with gender-neutral
> pronouns. I never encountered a native speaker of -say- Swahili, Armenian,
> Chinese or Indonesian who fatally misunderstood any holy book due to the
> lack of overt gender distinctions. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-05T14:27:44-06:00

On 5/4/13, Jens Wilkinson wrote:
> On 2013/05/05, at 8:09, Stephen Rice wrote:

>> At the other extreme, Lingua Franca Nova has only one common-gender
>> pronoun in the third person singular, and Pandunia has a single form
>> for the third person, though the plural may be optionally indicated. I
>> consider this a mistake. If the auxlang is meant only as a last
>> resort, it may be reasonable, but a more general-use auxlang should
>> allow gender marking, as Sambahsa and Lingwa de Planeta do.
>
> I don't think it is a mistake within [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-05T18:24:15+02:00

Jens Wilkinson skrev 2013-05-05 13:55:
> Jens Wilkinson
>
> On 2013/05/05, at 18:09, Kjell Rehnström wrote:
>
>> We are antropocentric just because we are humans. It would be utterly stupid to be something else, like cimicicentric or anything else -centric. One has to find some kind of equilibrium between ones very own interest and some kind of universal interest.
>>
> He said "androcentric", not "anthropocentric." They are slightly different.
>
> Jens.
>
You are right. Didn't think about
that! [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Sylvain Auclair — 2013-05-05T08:34:33-04:00

> Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 20:48:22 +0200
> From: Mathieu Roy
> Subject: Languages & Values
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to this mailing list. I've switched from the conlang one to this auxlang one because I'm more interested in discussing about auxlang (especially logical one) even though I do some conlanging for stories too.
>
> One thing I like about auxlang is that we can make them reflecting our values and not be stuck with old values. For example, the equality of gender is very important to me, and unfortunately all natural languages that [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Olivier Simon — 2013-05-05T07:57:51-04:00

Merci Jens !

Oui, "androcentrique" = "centré sur le masculin"

Re: Languages & Values

Jens Wilkinson — 2013-05-05T20:55:14+09:00

Jens Wilkinson

On 2013/05/05, at 18:09, Kjell Rehnström wrote:

> We are antropocentric just because we are humans. It would be utterly stupid to be something else, like cimicicentric or anything else -centric. One has to find some kind of equilibrium between ones very own interest and some kind of universal interest.
>
He said "androcentric", not "anthropocentric." They are slightly different. [...]

Languages & Values

Jerry Muelver — 2013-05-05T05:24:12-05:00

Values, or at least accommodation to convenience, can affect language, too.
See http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/04/25/178788893/yo-said-what

---- Jerry

Re: Languages & Values

Gleki Arxokuna — 2013-05-05T13:40:07+04:00

On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 10:48 PM, Mathieu Roy wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm new to this mailing list. I've switched from the conlang one to this
> auxlang one because I'm more interested in discussing about auxlang
> (especially logical one)

heh? logical one? do you have any ideas of how is that possible? What do
you mean by logical?
e.g. that Latin had "aut" for XOR operator and modern languages don't? [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-05T11:09:46+02:00

We are antropocentric just because
we are humans. It would be utterly
stupid to be something else, like
cimicicentric or anything else
-centric. One has to find some kind
of equilibrium between ones very
own interest and some kind of
universal interest.

Very often if not always perported
advocates for some over-all
interest end up as spokesmen for a
very small group of people as soon
as you begin to scratch the shiny
surface a little bit. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Yauh Kah — 2013-05-05T01:54:55-07:00

I agree with you, Jens. I think one big (indo)eurocentric misconception is that gender is not expressed or picked up in languages with gender-neutral pronouns. I never encountered a native speaker of -say- Swahili, Armenian, Chinese or Indonesian who fatally misunderstood any holy book due to the lack of overt gender distinctions. This is simply because most societies on earth are hopelessly androcentric to begin with. Nobody ever made the mistake of taking Eve for Steve or figured Moses liked to paint his nails. Or maybe he did, I have no clue of local masculine customs in that age and [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Jens Wilkinson — 2013-05-05T12:52:55+09:00

On 2013/05/05, at 8:09, Stephen Rice wrote:

>
> At the other extreme, Lingua Franca Nova has only one common-gender
> pronoun in the third person singular, and Pandunia has a single form
> for the third person, though the plural may be optionally indicated. I
> consider this a mistake. If the auxlang is meant only as a last
> resort, it may be reasonable, but a more general-use auxlang should
> allow gender marking, as Sambahsa and Lingwa de Planeta do. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Stephen Rice — 2013-05-04T17:09:18-06:00

On 5/4/13, Mathieu Roy wrote:

> I'm new to this mailing list. I've switched from the conlang one to this
> auxlang one because I'm more interested in discussing about auxlang
> (especially logical one) even though I do some conlanging for stories too.

I consider logical languages a false path for auxlangs. They provide a
neutral grammar, but the way they structure information and
relationships is inherently unnatural. It's hard enough to get people
to learn a language without that. [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Paul Bartlett — 2013-05-04T15:38:59-04:00

On Sat, 04 May 2013 14:48:22 -0400, Mathieu Roy
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm new to this mailing list. [...]

Welcome. You will find that volume of posts goes up and down, so please be
patient.

> One thing I like about auxlang is that we can make them reflecting our
> values and not be stuck with old values. For example, the equality of
> gender is very important to me, and unfortunately all natural languages
> that I know to some extent (French, English, Spanish, Catalan, ASL)
> contain a certain amount of features I consider [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Kjell Rehnström — 2013-05-04T21:36:42+02:00

Mathieu Roy skrev 2013-05-04 20:48:
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to this mailing list. I've switched from the conlang one to this auxlang one because I'm more interested in discussing about auxlang (especially logical one) even though I do some conlanging for stories too.
>
> One thing I like about auxlang is that we can make them reflecting our values and not be stuck with old values. For example, the equality of gender is very important to me, and unfortunately all natural languages that I know to some extent (French, English, Spanish, Catalan, ASL) contain a certain amount [...]

Re: Languages & Values

Olivier Simon — 2013-05-04T15:30:12-04:00

Bonsoir !

Il est parfois reproché à l'espéranto d'être sexiste puisque le masculin est "par défaut", comme en français par exemple. C'est pourquoi, l'ido a été conçu de manière à être "asexué", et si genre précis il y a, il est indiqué par des suffixes propres (donc y compris pour le masculin). [...]

Languages & Values

Mathieu Roy — 2013-05-04T20:48:22+02:00

Hello,

I'm new to this mailing list. I've switched from the conlang one to this auxlang one because I'm more interested in discussing about auxlang (especially logical one) even though I do some conlanging for stories too.

One thing I like about auxlang is that we can make them reflecting our values and not be stuck with old values. For example, the equality of gender is very important to me, and unfortunately all natural languages that I know to some extent (French, English, Spanish, Catalan, ASL) contain a certain amount of features I consider sexists. I just read this interesting [...]

"L'Aventuros d'Alis in Marvoland" (Alice in Neo) published by Evertype

Michael Everson — 2013-05-02T11:15:06+01:00

Evertype would like to announce the publication of Ralph Midgley's translation of “Alice's Adventures in Wonderland” into Neo, “L'Aventuros d'Alis in Marvoland”. The book uses John Tenniel's classic illustrations. A page with links to Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk is available at http://www.evertype.com/books/alice-neu.html . Bookstores can order copies at a discount from the publisher. [...]