CONLANG

Asirka website

2013-05-21T22:33:08-06:00

I have posted a website for my new conlang, Asirka. There is an incomplete
pdf grammar, a vocabulary page similar to Rosetta Stone (Rosetta Lite?) as
well as a page of sentences translated from English based on Graded
Sentences for Analysis by Mary B Rossman and Mary W. Mills (published 1922).
I will continue to add sentences over time. The book has 1,200 of them of
which I have completed 10. It all can be found at: [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-21T23:45:36-04:00

Re: Grammatical complexity

2013-05-21T21:34:14-05:00

Right. It's that fuzzy territory alongside the nonbright line I'm
wanting to explore as I decide on the case structure for Gravgaln.

Adam

On 5/21/13, Alex Fink <000024@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2013 20:45:58 -0500, Adam Walker wrote:
>
>>Is anyone here the teensiest bit familiar with the Dumi language and
>>its ornative case? I'm trying to figure out why it should be
>>considered a noun case and not a strategy for turning nouns into
>>adjectives.
>
> Well, what counts as a case, just like what counts as what part of speech
> and whatnot, is [...]

Re: Grammatical complexity

2013-05-21T21:18:53-05:00

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Adam Walker wrote:

> Is anyone here the teensiest bit familiar with the Dumi language and
> its ornative case? I'm trying to figure out why it should be
> considered a noun case and not a strategy for turning nouns into
> adjectives. Of course I accept genative as a case and it does pretty
> much the same sort of thing - takes a noun and turns it into something
> that functions more like an adjective. [...]

Re: Grammatical complexity

2013-05-21T22:18:25-04:00

On Tue, 21 May 2013 20:45:58 -0500, Adam Walker wrote:

>Is anyone here the teensiest bit familiar with the Dumi language and
>its ornative case? I'm trying to figure out why it should be
>considered a noun case and not a strategy for turning nouns into
>adjectives.

Well, what counts as a case, just like what counts as what part of speech and whatnot, is at root a *syntactic* rather than a semantic question. So I would guess that the answer is uninspiring (if you were hoping for a neat semantic rule): that the Dumi ornative forms a paradigm [...]

Re: Grammatical complexity

2013-05-21T20:45:58-05:00

Is anyone here the teensiest bit familiar with the Dumi language and
its ornative case? I'm trying to figure out why it should be
considered a noun case and not a strategy for turning nouns into
adjectives. Of course I accept genative as a case and it does pretty
much the same sort of thing - takes a noun and turns it into something
that functions more like an adjective. [...]

Re: Conscripts and computers

2013-05-21T20:05:46-04:00

The Gwr font was made with Fontographer. The initial consonants, vowels,
and final consonants are all separate characters with the horizontal bar
extending just a little beyond the side bearings so they slightly
overlap. The tone marks have zero width and are designed to the left of
the left bearing line so they overlap the previous character. [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-21T18:13:48-04:00

The language that I'm working on makes a variety of distinctions among
negation, separating usages that English (and from your comments, many
other languages) group together.

For example, one form of negation is equivalent to the logical 'not',
another to the logical 'anti'. In English, if we say we're unhappy or not
happy, that's almost always interpreted as meaning we're unsatisfied or
displeased. But if we describe a color as "not green", no one assumes that
the color must be red. In my conlang, 'not happy' and 'anti-happy' are
distinct - all concepts are negated in the same way English [...]

Re: Conscripts and computers

2013-05-21T16:13:30-03:00

It seems that Graphite might do the trick, just have to learn how it works.

And yes, it has some similarities with Gwr. How it was made?

George Marques
http://georgemarques.com.br

2013/5/21 Roger Mills

> You might want to take a look at my Gwr script-- yours sounds sort-of
> similar.
>
> http://cinduworld.tripod.com/prelim_gwr.htm scroll down to Paragraph 3
> (the writing system) and click the "here" link, which gets you a pdf.
>
> --- On Tue, 5/21/13, George Marques de Jesus
> wrote:
>
> From: George Marques de Jesus
> Subject: Re: Conscripts and computers
[...]

Re: Conscripts and computers

2013-05-21T10:27:47-07:00

You might want to take a look at my Gwr script-- yours sounds sort-of similar.

http://cinduworld.tripod.com/prelim_gwr.htm scroll down to Paragraph 3 (the writing system) and click the "here" link, which gets you a pdf.

--- On Tue, 5/21/13, George Marques de Jesus wrote:

From: George Marques de Jesus
Subject: Re: Conscripts and computers
To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
Date: Tuesday, May 21, 2013, 12:44 AM [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-21T17:34:52+02:00

On 2013-05-20 at 23:17:48 -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> BTW, a professor of mine once said that Brazilians would promptly
> answer "sweet" to the question "What's the opposite of salty?" while
> Americans (she had already lived in the USA) would think that this is
> a nonsense question. Here I have the opportunity to know if this is
> true. [...]

Re: Grammatical complexity

2013-05-21T09:42:54-05:00

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Wm Annis wrote:

> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Adam Walker wrote:
> > How common is it for a language to have both a powerful verbal morphology
> > AND robust case marking?
>
> One way to think about this question is the distinction between
> head-marking (lots of argument marking on the verb) and dependent-
> marking (lots of argument stuff on the noun phrase) languages. What
> you're describing is close to "double-marking." It's not particularly
> common, but it's not unheard of, [...]

Re: Grammatical complexity

2013-05-21T09:23:20-05:00

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Adam Walker wrote:
> How common is it for a language to have both a powerful verbal morphology
> AND robust case marking?

One way to think about this question is the distinction between
head-marking (lots of argument marking on the verb) and dependent-
marking (lots of argument stuff on the noun phrase) languages. What
you're describing is close to "double-marking." It's not particularly
common, but it's not unheard of, either: [...]

Grammatical complexity

2013-05-21T09:14:15-05:00

How common is it for a language to have both a powerful verbal morphology
AND robust case marking? I have just started looking at cases for
Gravgaln, and realized that many of the cases I have been looking at will
supply very similar (though not, perhaps, identical) information as is
already supplied in the verbal morphology. Are there languages that supply
detailed information about the directionality of an action in the verb
(I-was-walk-ing-away-going.up.with.difficulty) AND make use of cases like
allative, illative, lative, perlative, vialis etc.? [...]

Re: Possible case system

2013-05-21T09:06:39-05:00

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:06 AM, Jyri Lehtinen wrote:

> > Although I'm not sure what's happening with the Fifth grade teacher.
> >
>
> Seems like
>
> fifth grade teacher-ACC-POSS is tired
> = [a teacher of the fifth grade]-ACC is tired
>
> (using here nominative/accusative for ak/ev). I'm not sure how common it is
> to mark possession with a case
> on the possessed noun. According to Wikipedia the possessed case is
> attested (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possessive). A more typical way to
> mark possession on the possessed noun is to use possessive affixes, [...]

Re: THEORY: False false cognates.

2013-05-21T06:56:21-06:00

On Mon, 20 May 2013 11:08:13 -0600, Matthew Boutilier
wrote:
> i don't think the general public of any country/culture has a solid grasp
> of what cognates are.

Might just be a shibboleth of some kind - the set of words are a terminus
technicus among linguists but in non-technical use still have their other
senses. [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-21T05:40:34-07:00

--- On Mon, 5/20/13, Leonardo Castro wrote:

> BTW, a professor of mine once said that Brazilians would promptly
> answer "sweet" to the question "What's the opposite of salty?" while
> Americans (she had already lived in the USA) would think that this is
> a nonsense question. Here I have the opportunity to know if this is
> true. [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-21T05:29:34-07:00

--- On Tue, 5/21/13, MorphemeAddict wrote:

> > What Zamenhoff was missing was the logical difference between
> > contraries and contradictories. Contraries are the opposite ends of a
> > scale, like black and white, big and small.
>
> Black vs white is a different kind of opposite than big vs small.
> Black and white are the two endpoints of a continuum of gray with
> extremes at each end: binary.
> Big and small aren't both endpoints, only small is, with the extreme of
> zero: relative. [...]

Re: Conscripts and computers

2013-05-21T14:19:27+02:00

Sounds like you could be helped by Graphite!

When I did a conscript with context-sensitive variants a longish
time ago I did a font with characters for each permutation much
likehow Tibetan script works in Unicode, but left the process
of chosing how to map a sequence of Latin 'transliteration'
charaters to conscript font glyphs to a separate transliteration
script. Depending on how much you want to be able to type WYSIWYG
in your conscript that may be the easier approach. I've been
working on a script which generates lookup tables for simple
substring matching and mapping with some [...]

Re: two online conlanging tools from Jan Strasser

2013-05-21T07:46:25-04:00

Thank you for passing this on - I'm very excited to have a look!

2013/5/21 Alex Fink <000024@gmail.com>

> http://audmanh.wordpress.com/2013/05/20/two-tools-for-conlangers/
> Derivizer: produce random derived forms from a list of bases and a
> list of affixal derivational operations, to stimulate
> derived-lexicon-building
> Frequentizer: compute relative frequencies of the vowels and
> consonants given a passage of text (like we were talking about here
> recently); allows for transcriptional complications, like digraphs
> etc.
>
> Alex
>

Re: Possible case system

2013-05-21T11:06:01+03:00

> Although I'm not sure what's happening with the Fifth grade teacher.
>

Seems like

fifth grade teacher-ACC-POSS is tired
= [a teacher of the fifth grade]-ACC is tired

(using here nominative/accusative for ak/ev). I'm not sure how common it is
to mark possession with a case
on the possessed noun. According to Wikipedia the possessed case is
attested (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possessive). A more typical way to
mark possession on the possessed noun is to use possessive affixes, i.e. to
inflect the noun according to the person and typically number of the
possessor. You can have this system loose the first and [...]

Re: Conscripts and computers

2013-05-21T01:44:14-03:00

Let me try to describe it.

The syllable structure is CV(V)C. The final consonant has 5 possibilities,
including a "null consonant".

Vowels might be short or long. The long version are represented with an
extra horizontal line and the next vowel (if any) sits in the top of that
line.

The initial consonants are squared glyphs (although not always box-like)
with one vowel slot "inside" and another "outside", but the slots are
always side by side in the same height. The final consonants are horizontal
and placed under the group, covering whole width. [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-21T00:13:31-04:00

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 11:48 AM, David McCann wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2013 21:10:06 -0300
> Leonardo Castro wrote:
>
> > A problem in forming the opposite with a preffix is that sometimes
> > "opposite" seems to be subjective or multiple. What's the opposite of
> > "boring" -- "interesting", "exciting", "fun", "funny" or "not boring"?
> > For some people, the opposite of "sweet" is "salty", but it could be
> > also "bitter", "acid" (and what to do with "alkaline"?) or
> > "savourless"...
>
> What Zamenhoff was missing was [...]

two online conlanging tools from Jan Strasser

2013-05-21T00:13:19-04:00

http://audmanh.wordpress.com/2013/05/20/two-tools-for-conlangers/
Derivizer: produce random derived forms from a list of bases and a
list of affixal derivational operations, to stimulate
derived-lexicon-building
Frequentizer: compute relative frequencies of the vowels and
consonants given a passage of text (like we were talking about here
recently); allows for transcriptional complications, like digraphs
etc.

Alex

Re: Conscripts and computers

2013-05-21T00:08:15-04:00

Can you post more about your combination scheme?
On May 21, 2013 12:05 AM, "George Marques de Jesus"
wrote:

> Well, it's not different of the way I thought it should work, I'm not so
> bad in guessing, at least.
>
> But now I don't know *how* to create such slots and permutations with the
> font, so the word processor would understand and prettify everything. I
> will dive into FontForge and see what I can do.
>
> George Marques
> http://georgemarques.com.br
>
>
> 2013/5/21 Casey Borders
>
> > My thought is [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-21T00:06:35-04:00

Rick Morneau wrote about different kinds of opposites and antonyms in
Lexical Semantics.

stevo

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 11:20 PM, Gary Shannon wrote:

> Thee are several kinds of "opposites". Look at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposite_(semantics) for example.
>
> I recall a post here a few years back that listed several types and
> the conlang had a different affix for each one. E.g. The opposite of
> "broken" might be "repaired", or it might be "unbroken" depending on
> whether you mean to "un-break" a thing after it is broken, or to
> describe a state before [...]

Re: Conscripts and computers

2013-05-21T01:05:47-03:00

Well, it's not different of the way I thought it should work, I'm not so
bad in guessing, at least.

But now I don't know *how* to create such slots and permutations with the
font, so the word processor would understand and prettify everything. I
will dive into FontForge and see what I can do. [...]

Re: Conscripts and computers

2013-05-20T23:49:35-04:00

My thought is that you wouldn't need every combination you just need each
letter in each permutation. So you need to look at how you're forming your
blocks and find out how many different slots you have and make a version of
each letter that fits into each slot. Then, when you type, it would be
something like : [...]

Conscripts and computers

2013-05-21T00:30:33-03:00

I'm finally trying to develop a conscript. I liked the way Hangul works, so
I thought to do something with the same idea: an alphabet that groups
letters into syllables. I sketched some letters in the paper, but then I
realized I had no idea how to use them in the computer. I know plenty about
computers, as a hobbyist programmer, though only almost nothing about fonts. [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-20T23:28:37-04:00

David McCann wrote:
> What Zamenhoff was missing was the logical difference between
> contraries and contradictories. Contraries are the opposite ends of a
> scale, like black and white, big and small. In natural languages they
> are normally expressed by separate terms. Contradictories are terms
> which divide the scale between them, like coloured and colourless, and
> these are generally derivatives. Esperanto's malrapida confuses "slow"
> and "not fast". [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-20T21:59:05-05:00

I consider sweet and sour to be "opposites". For salty I guess I
would say bland or flavorless would be opposite. Bitter's opposite
would be good. :).

Adam

On 5/20/13, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> BTW, a professor of mine once said that Brazilians would promptly
> answer "sweet" to the question "What's the opposite of salty?" while
> Americans (she had already lived in the USA) would think that this is
> a nonsense question. Here I have the opportunity to know if this is
> true.
>
> She attributed this to the Brazilian culinary where every food [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-20T23:17:48-03:00

BTW, a professor of mine once said that Brazilians would promptly
answer "sweet" to the question "What's the opposite of salty?" while
Americans (she had already lived in the USA) would think that this is
a nonsense question. Here I have the opportunity to know if this is
true.

She attributed this to the Brazilian culinary where every food is
usually either very salty or very sweet. She also pointed out that
water from rivers is referred to as "sweet water" in Brazil, as
opposed to "salty water", but, googling for it, now I see that this
expression is used [...]

Re: New language sentence trial

2013-05-21T14:02:02+12:00

Can you explain a bit more about what is going on in this sentence? Why is go in the infinitive? Is 'ikit' from the verb do or is it just a TAM marker or a 'dummy verb' like the English word in the equivalent sentence?

James

On 21/05/2013, at 10:59 AM, James Thain wrote: [...]

New language sentence trial

2013-05-20T18:59:50-04:00

Hi
I mostly lurk here reading others posts but I have recently worked out a prototype sentence in my newish conlang. I am wondering if I have got it right or if it needs further work. The language is VSO in declarative sentences. Anyway here it is:

melben ikta al Boston
melb+en ikit-a al boton
go-inf. do(past/perf)+per prep. noun
go did I to Boston [...]

Re: Bold claims from the U of Reading / Washington post

2013-05-20T18:05:19-05:00

On May 20, 2013, at 5:52 PM, Padraic Brown wrote:

> --- On Mon, 5/13/13, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
>
>> And here for a very good rebuttal:
>> http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/do-ultraconserved-words-reveal-linguistic-macro-families
>
> Merci! That was a very helpful article indeed.

And that blog itself seems pretty addictive.

Re: Possible case system

2013-05-20T18:00:29-05:00

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 2:21 PM, neo gu wrote:

> On Mon, 20 May 2013 13:17:14 -0500, Adam Walker
> wrote:
>
> >I have been tinkering with what will eventually become the case system for
> >Gravgaln (now that verbs are stabilizing) and here's what I came up with
> >last night:
> >
> >John-ak ate the cake-ev.
> >John-ak ate.
> >John-ev fell.
> >John-ak fell. (because he threw himself down)
> >
> >John-ak gave Tom-il the book-ev.
> >John-ak gave Tom-il Bob-ev.
> >
> >John-ak killed Bob-ev.
> >John-ev was [...]

Re: Bold claims from the U of Reading / Washington post

2013-05-20T15:52:46-07:00

--- On Mon, 5/13/13, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:

> And here for a very good rebuttal:
> http://geocurrents.info/cultural-geography/linguistic-geography/do-ultraconserved-words-reveal-linguistic-macro-families

Merci! That was a very helpful article indeed.

Padraic

> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-20T15:51:41-07:00

--- On Sun, 5/19/13, Leonardo Castro wrote: > > Of course. And "ungood", as I think I mentioned, is indeed a highly > > interesting way of parsing up the universe -- because the author > > did it consciously and with the big picture in mind. It wasn't done out > > of ignorance or naivety, just taking a random list of adjectives (big, > > good, red, fast, fat, best, pretty, warm) and saying "okay, stick > > 'un-' on the front of all those to make the opposite". > > A problem in forming the opposite [...]

Re: Possible case system

2013-05-20T15:21:56-04:00

On Mon, 20 May 2013 13:17:14 -0500, Adam Walker wrote:

>I have been tinkering with what will eventually become the case system for
>Gravgaln (now that verbs are stabilizing) and here's what I came up with
>last night:
>
>John-ak ate the cake-ev.
>John-ak ate.
>John-ev fell.
>John-ak fell. (because he threw himself down)
>
>John-ak gave Tom-il the book-ev.
>John-ak gave Tom-il Bob-ev.
>
>John-ak killed Bob-ev.
>John-ev was killed.
>
>John-ak killed Bob-ev knife-azh.
>John-ak killed Tom-azh.
>John-ak killed Bob-ev Tom-azh. [...]

Re: Possible case system

2013-05-20T15:01:36-04:00

To me, this looks like a fairly typical active-stative system. However, I'm not entirely sure what is happening in the last two sections (with -azh and -on). It looks like -azh is an instrumental, and -on is a possessive.

Could you clarify the situations in which each case is used?

On May 20, 2013, at 14:17, Adam Walker wrote: [...]

Re: Possible case system

2013-05-20T14:22:42-07:00

Do these cases have a name?

Mellissa Green

@GreenNovelist

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On
Behalf Of Adam Walker
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 11:17 AM
To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
Subject: Possible case system

I have been tinkering with what will eventually become the case system for
Gravgaln (now that verbs are stabilizing) and here's what I came up with
last night: [...]

Possible case system

2013-05-20T13:17:14-05:00

I have been tinkering with what will eventually become the case system for
Gravgaln (now that verbs are stabilizing) and here's what I came up with
last night:

John-ak ate the cake-ev.
John-ak ate.
John-ev fell.
John-ak fell. (because he threw himself down)

John-ak gave Tom-il the book-ev.
John-ak gave Tom-il Bob-ev.

John-ak killed Bob-ev.
John-ev was killed.

John-ak killed Bob-ev knife-azh.
John-ak killed Tom-azh.
John-ak killed Bob-ev Tom-azh. [...]

Re: THEORY: False false cognates.

2013-05-20T12:08:13-05:00

yes!

in my experience with classroom language-learning, especially in high
school, teachers and students pretty much use "false cognates" and "false
friends" interchangeably, to describe words that look like they should have
the same *meaning* but don't.

so, i repeatedly heard that english *gift* and german *Gift* were false
cognates (the latter means 'poison'). but the words are, of course,
cognates (the german semantics seem to have gone "a dosage (how much is
given)" > "a drug" > "poison"). [...]

Re: THEORY: False false cognates.

2013-05-20T13:01:23-04:00

Read the Wikipedia articles "False Cognate" and "False Friend".

Charlie

----- Original Message -----
Well, false cognate would strictly mean words that appear to have the same
origin but don't.

In my experience in language classes the average person is pretty poor at
identifying cognates that don't have a 1 to 1 correspondence. So they'll
sort of understand the definition above, but be unable to identify words
that meet it. [...]

Re: THEORY: False false cognates.

2013-05-20T17:56:59+01:00

Leonardo, the concept you describe sounds like "false friends"

Eugene

Sent from my iPhone

On 20 May 2013, at 17:33, Nathan Schulzke wrote:

> Well, false cognate would strictly mean words that appear to have the same
> origin but don't.
>
> In my experience in language classes the average person is pretty poor at
> identifying cognates that don't have a 1 to 1 correspondence. So they'll
> sort of understand the definition above, but be unable to identify words
> that meet it.
>
> They'll then proceed to label the words as false cognates, since [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-20T12:46:45-07:00

Sounds like I'll get something out it.

Mellissa Green

@GreenNovelist

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of Daniel Myers
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 6:57 AM
To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
Subject: Re: Language Creation at GenCon

I plan on waling them through a method for building a phonemic inventory
along with patterns for generating realistic-sounding words, and then
providing suggestions for roughing out a basic grammar. Depending on
how long that takes (and how many times I get sidetracked), I'll spend
the rest of the time discussing quirks of various languages, color
terms, numbers, etc. [...]

Re: THEORY: False false cognates.

2013-05-20T10:33:24-06:00

Well, false cognate would strictly mean words that appear to have the same
origin but don't.

In my experience in language classes the average person is pretty poor at
identifying cognates that don't have a 1 to 1 correspondence. So they'll
sort of understand the definition above, but be unable to identify words
that meet it. [...]

Re: Typical lexicon size in natlangs

2013-05-20T17:56:10+02:00

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Anthony Miles wrote:

> Even in an impoverished environment humans or something like them will expand vocabulary.

Sure. But this thread discusses "typical lexicon size", and Gary
Shannon and H. S. Teoh proposed a "bootstrap lexicon size" as a
meaningful measure. And I'm just pointing out that I don't think it
would be a good metric, because if you use it for many languages, and
the resulting size varies, let's say, between X-10% and X+10% for some
X, that does not offer any insight about the *typical* lexicon size of
the [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-20T16:48:01+01:00

On Sun, 19 May 2013 21:10:06 -0300
Leonardo Castro wrote:

> A problem in forming the opposite with a preffix is that sometimes
> "opposite" seems to be subjective or multiple. What's the opposite of
> "boring" -- "interesting", "exciting", "fun", "funny" or "not boring"?
> For some people, the opposite of "sweet" is "salty", but it could be
> also "bitter", "acid" (and what to do with "alkaline"?) or
> "savourless"... [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-20T11:38:16-04:00

In general I think 'nothing' is more more often, and more
sensibly, associated with 'zero' than the mere negation is. Many
European languages derive their word for 'zero' from the Latin
word for 'none'. Sanskrit uses _śūnyam_ 'empty, void' for 'zero'
as a 'value', but the digit is _bindu_ 'dot', which is just what
it looks like in the Indic scripts. So I'd advise you to use
'none/nothing/void' for 'zero' if you don't want a dedicated word
for it, if only to avoid strange ambiguities. [...]

Re: Typical lexicon size in natlangs

2013-05-20T11:32:11-04:00

> I'd like to borrow from computer parlance and call it the "bootstrapping
> lexicon" -- the minimum vocabulary that's necessary for the conlang to
> be able to "pull itself up standing by its boot straps", so to speak.

The trouble with a bootstrapping (or "critical mass") lexicon is that
it just doesn't say too much, I think. In computer science, if you
strip programming languages back to their minimum Turing-complete
selves, the results will have (roughly speaking) similar sizes. I'd
bet the same happens for most languages (conlangs or otherwise). I
don't know how many words would be [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-20T10:24:15-05:00

It's quite a rush!

Adam

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Casey Borders wrote:

> I am very excited about this! I've never had the opportunity to chat with
> any Conlangers in person!
>
> *
> *
> *Casey Borders*
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Daniel Myers wrote:
>
> >
> > I plan on waling them through a method for building a phonemic inventory
> > along with patterns for generating realistic-sounding words, and then
> > providing suggestions for roughing out a basic grammar. Depending [...]

THEORY: False false cognates.

2013-05-20T11:19:00-03:00

Is there an abuse of the expression "false cognates" in your countries too?

AFAIK, "cognate" is an etymological concept, but people here in Brazil
keeps using "false cognates" as " words of two languages that appear
to have the same meaning, but don't ", with no regard to their origin.

Até mais!

Leonardo

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-20T10:01:00-04:00

I am very excited about this! I've never had the opportunity to chat with
any Conlangers in person!

*
*
*Casey Borders*

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Daniel Myers wrote:

>
> I plan on waling them through a method for building a phonemic inventory
> along with patterns for generating realistic-sounding words, and then
> providing suggestions for roughing out a basic grammar. Depending on
> how long that takes (and how many times I get sidetracked), I'll spend
> the rest of the time discussing quirks of various languages, color
> terms, numbers, etc.
[...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-20T06:57:06-07:00

I plan on waling them through a method for building a phonemic inventory along with patterns for generating realistic-sounding words, and then providing suggestions for roughing out a basic grammar. Depending on how long that takes (and how many times I get sidetracked), I'll spend the rest of the time discussing quirks of various languages, color terms, numbers, etc. - Doc > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews > Date: Mon, May 20, 2013 1:12 am > > I hoe I'll get something out of it. I wish I had my book from Holly LisleI hope [...]

Re: Typical lexicon size in natlangs

2013-05-20T14:08:17+02:00

(Newbie here, delurking for the first time. Hi everybody.)

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 4:09 AM, H. S. Teoh wrote:

> I'd like to borrow from computer parlance and call it the "bootstrapping
> lexicon" -- the minimum vocabulary that's necessary for the conlang to
> be able to "pull itself up standing by its boot straps", so to speak. [...]

Re: Edeinal: Language of the Edeinos

2013-05-20T04:39:22-07:00

On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 08:00:44PM -0600, Logan Kearsley wrote:
[...]
> On 23 April 2013 09:12, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 12:49:28AM -0600, Logan Kearsley wrote:
[...]
> >> Hm. Well, given my background in programming, I tend to think there
> >> are only three natural numbers of things that require no
> >> explanation- zero (because it's impossible), one, or infinite. Any
> >> other number, you better have a darn good reason for.
> >>
> >> So, either there's only one universe, or there's an uncountably
[...]

Re: A conundrum

2013-05-20T16:59:42+12:00

What's wrong with two constructions to mean essentially the same thing? Besides as you say one focuses on what Y was made of and the other what X was made into. An example: 'they made the clothes out of _ham_' - the emphasis is that ham is a weird choice for clothing material; 'they made the ham into _clothes_' - clothes are a weird thing for ham to be made into. [...]

Re: The New Language, v2.3

2013-05-19T23:50:06-04:00

On Sun, 19 May 2013 19:54:03 -0700, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:

>Here is version 2.3 of sodna-lɛni, complete with Babel Text (new to 2.3).
>https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzTJP-KMDTiGZm1JSmxWQ01fVzQ/edit?usp=sharingVersion
>2.1 I displayed at LCC5, and version 1 is what the LCC5 relay text
>was written in. For those of you who don't want to download a pdf, here is
>the Babel text (in rich/html format, so the monospace font will be used (I
>hope)), but all the abbreviations and such are explained in the pdf. [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-19T20:20:47-07:00

Thee are several kinds of "opposites". Look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposite_(semantics) for example.

I recall a post here a few years back that listed several types and
the conlang had a different affix for each one. E.g. The opposite of
"broken" might be "repaired", or it might be "unbroken" depending on
whether you mean to "un-break" a thing after it is broken, or to
describe a state before the thing was broken. So you might undo and
action, (break/repair) prevent the action, (break.protect) perform the
"opposite" action, ... [...]

Re: Morpheme Classification

2013-05-19T23:01:12-04:00

On Sun, 19 May 2013 20:06:19 -0400, Herman Miller wrote:

>On 5/19/2013 7:09 PM, neo gu wrote:
>> The current SSM3 documentation is up at
>>
>> http://qiihoskeh.conlang.org/cl/aux/SSM3/S3Intro.htm
>>
>> Any help with it is appreciated.
>
>What does "ATT" stand for?

Attributive. Possibly that should be MOD for modifier? Or "modifier" should be "attributive"?

>For "and" and "or" you might use something like "conjunctive" and
>"disjunctive" (from "conjunction" and "disjunction"). The "exactly one
>must be true" case could be "exclusive". [...]

The New Language, v2.3

2013-05-19T19:54:03-07:00

Here is version 2.3 of sodna-lɛni, complete with Babel Text (new to 2.3).
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzTJP-KMDTiGZm1JSmxWQ01fVzQ/edit?usp=sharingVersion
2.1 I displayed at LCC5, and version 1 is what the LCC5 relay text
was written in. For those of you who don't want to download a pdf, here is
the Babel text (in rich/html format, so the monospace font will be used (I
hope)), but all the abbreviations and such are explained in the pdf. [...]

Re: Typical lexicon size in natlangs

2013-05-19T22:28:14-04:00

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 10:09 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote:

> I apologize for starting and then dropping out of the middle of a very
> interesting discussion -- it just so happened I left on a vacation and
> right now have very spotty internet access. Today I got a more steady
> connection so I thought I should (start to) catch up a little.
>
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 01:49:28PM +0100, Sam Stutter wrote:
> > Just thinking aloud here:
> >
> > It strikes me that the question people [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T22:12:05-07:00

I hoe I'll get something out of it. I wish I had my book from Holly LisleI hope I can find it again, since the guide I'm ging through just give brief info, since it was geared towards a class she was teaching.
Do you have a Table of Contents?

Mellissa Green [...]

Re: Typical lexicon size in natlangs

2013-05-19T19:09:23-07:00

I apologize for starting and then dropping out of the middle of a very
interesting discussion -- it just so happened I left on a vacation and
right now have very spotty internet access. Today I got a more steady
connection so I thought I should (start to) catch up a little.

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 01:49:28PM +0100, Sam Stutter wrote:
> Just thinking aloud here:
>
> It strikes me that the question people ask when they say "how many
> words does a natlang have?" is actually "how deep and wide is the
> semantic field [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T19:06:04-07:00

Howdy, I'm the one doing the language creation seminar. My intention is to gear it towards conlang newbies, so I suspect there won't be much that hasn't been covered here over the past several years. I'm pretty easy to sidetrack, though. ;-) Recording it is fine, as long as you don't make too much fun of my voice. I'm also ok with the recording being posted online. I can't remember what my schedule is like on Friday after the seminar, but I'm pretty easy to find at the con - just look at the Writer's Symposium seminars or at the [...]

Re: A conundrum

2013-05-19T18:35:59-07:00

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Roger Mills wrote:
> Can you keep both? I can see a not-so-slight difference------
>
> --- On Sun, 5/19/13, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
> So, in the new language, I have a verb aŋi, which means to move around
> or in the vicinity of a vast or amorphous destination. I had the idea
> of modifying aŋi with the adverb mɛya (outwards), in order to make the
> construction X aŋi Y mɛya mean make Y out of X, as in vuya aŋi amba
> mɛya (make something out [...]

Re: A conundrum

2013-05-19T17:24:07-07:00

Can you keep both? I can see a not-so-slight difference------

--- On Sun, 5/19/13, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
So, in the new language, I have a verb aŋi, which means to move around
or in the vicinity of a vast or amorphous destination. I had the idea
of modifying aŋi with the adverb mɛya (outwards), in order to make the
construction X aŋi Y mɛya mean make Y out of X, as in vuya aŋi amba
mɛya (make something out of nothing). [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-19T21:10:06-03:00

2013/5/18 Padraic Brown :
> --- On Fri, 5/17/13, Zach Wellstood wrote:
> [...]
> Of course. And "ungood", as I think I mentioned, is indeed a highly
> interesting way of parsing up the universe -- because the author
> did it consciously and with the big picture in mind. It wasn't done out
> of ignorance or naivety, just taking a random list of adjectives (big,
> good, red, fast, fat, best, pretty, warm) and saying "okay, stick 'un-' on
> the front of all those to make the opposite". [...]

Re: Morpheme Classification

2013-05-19T20:06:19-04:00

On 5/19/2013 7:09 PM, neo gu wrote:
> The current SSM3 documentation is up at
>
> http://qiihoskeh.conlang.org/cl/aux/SSM3/S3Intro.htm
>
> Any help with it is appreciated.

What does "ATT" stand for?

For "and" and "or" you might use something like "conjunctive" and
"disjunctive" (from "conjunction" and "disjunction"). The "exactly one
must be true" case could be "exclusive". "Means" could be "instrumental".

A conundrum

2013-05-19T16:37:54-07:00

So, in the new language, I have a verb aŋi, which means to move around
or in the vicinity of a vast or amorphous destination. I had the idea
of modifying aŋi with the adverb mɛya (outwards), in order to make the
construction X aŋi Y mɛya mean make Y out of X, as in vuya aŋi amba
mɛya (make something out of nothing). Except, there is this other
verb, ɛmɛmɛ, which means to move in (and around) towards a source
(from any or all directions). And it occurs to me that a construction
like Y ɛmɛmɛ X eya (inwards) [...]

Re: Prairie Dog Language

2013-05-19T19:33:49-04:00

The researcher talks about how many prairie dog calls (chatters, jump-yips,
et al.) aren't decipherable yet because there is no associated behavior to
give a clue to the meaning.

I wonder how much of human language has such related behavior. I suspect
that, in adults at least, it's not very much.

stevo

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Gary Shannon wrote: [...]

Re: NATLANG: Nominatives in Southern Sierra Miwok

2013-05-19T19:09:52-04:00

> I was browsing Wikipedia for interesting case structures, and I come across Southern Sierra Miwok, a language spoken by Native Americans in California.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Sierra_Miwok_language
>
> Southern Sierra Miwok has nine cases, divided into three groups: autonomous, subordinate, and possessive. Autonomous case suffixes are the last suffix on a word. Subordinate case suffixes must be followed by an autonomous case suffix. The possessive has two allomorphs, one autonomous, one subordinate.
>
> The autonomous case suffixes are Nominative, Accusative, Temporal, and Vocative.
>
> Nominative is used for the subject of the sentence, forms modifying the subject [...]

Re: Morpheme Classification

2013-05-19T19:09:09-04:00

The current SSM3 documentation is up at

http://qiihoskeh.conlang.org/cl/aux/SSM3/S3Intro.htm

Any help with it is appreciated.

On Sat, 18 May 2013 00:48:39 -0400, neo gu wrote:
>
>SSM3 is coming along. What's not coming along very well is a coherent grammatical description. For example, I have several prefixes described as cases, which is how they sometimes act.
>
>do- genitive with o initial: afroqo odocko (Nom-dog Mod-Gen-boy) "the boy's dog"
>fe- allative with i initial: ifentiba (Sec-All-house) "to the house"
>
>But these can also be used with the e initial:
>
>afroqo edocko. (Nom-dog Vrb-belong_to-boy) "The dog belongs to the [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T19:02:30-07:00

Thanks for that. Sounds good. Now I see why Tolkeen took ten years to
worldbuild, notthat I plan to take ten years, but it takes a while, and
especially since I have to get specialized formatted books.

Mellissa Green

@GreenNovelist

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On
Behalf Of Casey Borders
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:43 PM
To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
Subject: Re: Language Creation at GenCon [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T18:51:34-04:00

I don't. I was very surprised to see the sessions. I plan on introducing
myself though!
On May 19, 2013 6:49 PM, "neo gu" wrote:

> On Sun, 19 May 2013 18:43:21 -0400, Casey Borders
> wrote:
>
> >Sorry about that. I'll copy and paste the descriptions.
>
> Thanks! Do you know who's involved in the Language Creation seminar?
>
> >Language Creation:
> >Fictional worlds often include languages to make their setting more
> >believable. This seminar will help you create your own language, suitable
> >for adding color to a game or novel.
> [...]

Prairie Dog Language

2013-05-19T15:50:20-07:00

http://www.treehugger.com/natural-sciences/researcher-decodes-praire-dog-language-discovers-theyve-been-calling-people-fat.html

Researcher decodes prairie dog language, discovers they've been
talking about us (Video)

Interesting article and video.

--gary

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T18:48:58-04:00

On Sun, 19 May 2013 18:43:21 -0400, Casey Borders wrote:

>Sorry about that. I'll copy and paste the descriptions.

Thanks! Do you know who's involved in the Language Creation seminar?

>Language Creation:
>Fictional worlds often include languages to make their setting more
>believable. This seminar will help you create your own language, suitable
>for adding color to a game or novel.
>
>Esperanto:
>Learn Esperanto, the international language, spoken by people worldwide.
>I'll teach the basics of the language, show you how and where it's used
>(*cough* William Shatner *cough*) and give resources for further study.
>Open up a [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T18:43:21-04:00

Sorry about that. I'll copy and paste the descriptions.

Language Creation:
Fictional worlds often include languages to make their setting more
believable. This seminar will help you create your own language, suitable
for adding color to a game or novel.

Esperanto:
Learn Esperanto, the international language, spoken by people worldwide.
I'll teach the basics of the language, show you how and where it's used
(*cough* William Shatner *cough*) and give resources for further study.
Open up a world of movies, music, and literature you never knew existed.
You'll come back from GenCon as a polyglot! Complete newbies welcome, as
are [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T18:33:43-04:00

On Sun, 19 May 2013 12:49:11 -0400, Casey Borders wrote:
>
>This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
>https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
>https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!

Your link goes to a sign-in page.

>For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
>tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
>Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
>should definitely stop by!
>*
>*
>*Casey Borders*

Re: Conaccents.

2013-05-19T13:16:03-07:00

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 08:34:03AM -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
[...]
> > On 11 May 2013 08:33, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> If there are two NPs following the verb, the prosody changes again:
> >>
> >> tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan dei bata.
> >> tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan nei bata.
> >> 3SG CVY walk hut ORG village RCP FIN
> >> [tâ4a? sā tapà butá? keī misânan dej bata]
> >> He is walking from the hut to the village.
> >>
> >> There's a [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T14:46:24-07:00

Thanks, that would be greatly appreciated. Even though I'm using a guide, it
would still be good, and may helpcomplete the guide, as it may offer ideas.

Mellissa Green

@GreenNovelist

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On
Behalf Of Casey Borders
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:42 AM
To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
Subject: Re: Language Creation at GenCon

Most likely not but I could try to do an audio recording if the presenter
is up for it.
On May 19, 2013 2:24 PM, "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" <
goldyemoran@gmail.com> wrote: [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T14:41:33-04:00

Most likely not but I could try to do an audio recording if the presenter
is up for it.
On May 19, 2013 2:24 PM, "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" <
goldyemoran@gmail.com> wrote:

> Will it be online?
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Casey Borders
> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:49 AM
> To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
> Subject: Language Creation at GenCon
>
> This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
> https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on [...]

Re: Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T14:24:09-07:00

Will it be online?

Mellissa Green

@GreenNovelist

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On
Behalf Of Casey Borders
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:49 AM
To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
Subject: Language Creation at GenCon

This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!

For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
should definitely stop by!
*
[...]

Language Creation at GenCon

2013-05-19T12:49:11-04:00

This year at GenCon there is going to be a session on creating a language (
https://www.gencon.com/events/41206) and another on learning Esperanto (
https://www.gencon.com/events/41738)!

For those of you who aren't familiar with GenCon it is the largest board /
tabletop gaming convention in the country! It happens every year in
Indianapolis and is an awesome time! If you have a chance you
should definitely stop by!
*
*
*Casey Borders*

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-18T08:11:41-07:00

--- On Fri, 5/17/13, Zach Wellstood wrote: > > > I have read some criticism about conlangs that derive common words > > > from words; "bad" as "ungood", for instance (what recalls Newspeak > > > and Esperanto). What do you think about it? Do your conlangs have > > > any very common words that are derived from others? > > > If the conlanger does the above out of ignorance or out of naivety, > > then it is ill done, though certainly forgiveable! It is a sign of > > immaturity in the art, and [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-18T10:08:46+02:00

2013-05-17 22:36, Elyse M Grasso skrev:

> Some (mostly historical?) dialects of English use nought (nothing)
> as equivalent to zero. The game Americans call tic-tac-toe is
> noughts and crosses in Britain.
>
> Oddly, 'ought' which should be the opposite of 'nought', is (or
> was) also used for zero. I have never heard it used for any
> function except dates: "the year of ought six" [...]

Morpheme Classification

2013-05-18T00:48:39-04:00

SSM3 is coming along. What's not coming along very well is a coherent grammatical description. For example, I have several prefixes described as cases, which is how they sometimes act.

do- genitive with o initial: afroqo odocko (Nom-dog Mod-Gen-boy) "the boy's dog"
fe- allative with i initial: ifentiba (Sec-All-house) "to the house" [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-18T00:11:28-04:00

> Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 17:29:53 -0300
> From: leolucas1980@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: No = zero ?
> To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU

> 2013/5/17 Mechthild Czapp rejistania@me.com:

> > Der Film endet um 0 Uhr.
> > The film ends at zero o'clock. (not really commonly said, in English, but in German, Null Uhr (literally: zero hour) does not sound as wonky).
> > *The film ends at no o'clock. [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T22:00:30-05:00

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 9:35 PM, C. Brickner wrote:

> I don’t understand the rationale of using the contemporary meaning of a
> German word to translate a third-century Latin phrase. ‘Nullus’ is not
> translated as zero. Since the concept of zero was unknown to the Romans,
> that translation was not used by them. And, as far as I know, it is not
> used that way by the modern Catholic Church. At least, the word is not
> given that translation in the Dictionary of Ecclesiastical Latin.
>
> One can’t merge ‘zero’ and ‘none’ [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T22:35:30-04:00

I don’t understand the rationale of using the contemporary meaning of a German word to translate a third-century Latin phrase. ‘Nullus’ is not translated as zero. Since the concept of zero was unknown to the Romans, that translation was not used by them. And, as far as I know, it is not used that way by the modern Catholic Church. At least, the word is not given that translation in the Dictionary of Ecclesiastical Latin. [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T23:17:23-03:00

2013/5/17 Harald S. :
> Hello everybody! :-)
>
> Delurking after about ten years of only reading the conlang list, I want to point out the interesting fact that in German (as has already been mentioned in this thread) "Null" is the word for zero but actually comes from Latin where "nullus/nulla/nullum" means no one or nothing, respectively. The Catholic church liked to say about itself: Extra ecclesiam nulla salus - Outside of the church (there is) no salvation. But, having the german meaning of "zero" in mind, it could also be interpreted as: Outside of the church there [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T22:07:34-04:00

On 5/17/2013 4:05 PM, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> While developing a new conlang, I came to the question of whether or
> not the words "no" and "zero" can be the same word (when "zero" is not
> refering to the number per se) or if there are subtle logical
> distinctions between these concepts. [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-17T18:39:53-07:00

Kash can do this with its prefix tar- ~ tra-, basically = Engl. "un-", but sometimes the meaning of the negated form isn't exact.

minda 'happy' , traminda 'unhappy' and quite a few others,
but muko 'bad' (not in the moral sense) , tramuko 'not bad = just OK, so-so'

and leñ is 'good' (in the moral sense) but redup. _traleleñ_ is 'evil' [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T18:34:10-07:00

Well, in Kash "not" is _ta_ (tak before a vowel) and "zero" happens to be derived: _tanda_ < ta+N+ta. This was deliberate on my part :-) "No" (opposite of "yes") is also related, _tayi_

--- On Fri, 5/17/13, Leonardo Castro wrote:

From: Leonardo Castro
Subject: No = zero ?
To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
Date: Friday, May 17, 2013, 4:05 PM [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T20:01:21-04:00

Hello everybody! :-)

Delurking after about ten years of only reading the conlang list, I want to point out the interesting fact that in German (as has already been mentioned in this thread) "Null" is the word for zero but actually comes from Latin where "nullus/nulla/nullum" means no one or nothing, respectively. The Catholic church liked to say about itself: Extra ecclesiam nulla salus - Outside of the church (there is) no salvation. But, having the german meaning of "zero" in mind, it could also be interpreted as: Outside of the church there are zero salvations. [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-17T19:17:47-04:00

liyaá' łí'!

=======
If the conlanger does the above out
of ignorance or out of naivety, then it is ill done, though certainly
forgiveable! It is a sign of immaturity in the art, and such a one can
be taught and can improve his works, like a kindergartener taking the
tempra begobbed paint brush in his fist and mashing it onto the newsprint
taped to the easel.
======= [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-17T18:15:07-04:00

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> I have read some criticism about conlangs that derive common words
> from words; "bad" as "ungood", for instance (what recalls Newspeak and
> Esperanto). What do you think about it? Do your conlangs have any very
> common words that are derived from others? Are there examples of such [...]

Re: Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-17T13:56:10-07:00

--- On Fri, 5/17/13, Leonardo Castro wrote:

> I have read some criticism about conlangs that derive common words
> from words; "bad" as "ungood", for instance (what recalls Newspeak and
> Esperanto). What do you think about it?

I think this, especially since you bring up two diametrically opposed kinds
of conlangs: Newspeak and Eserpanto. If the conlanger does the above out
of ignorance or out of naivety, then it is ill done, though certainly
forgiveable! It is a sign of immaturity in the art, and such a one can
be taught and can improve his works, like [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T16:49:58-04:00

For what it's worth, łaá siri has had this built into it for quite some
time. It was something I knew I wanted to incorporate, but haven't focused
on it as much as I ought to. But anyway...

There are a small group of verbs which I call "static descriptives"
because they deal mostly with being in a state of something ("to be tall,"
"to be fat," "to be numerous," etc.) These select few static descriptives
can be used as prefixes as well as verb roots -- when used as prefixes,
they indicate that the noun is in a state [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T14:36:02-06:00

On 05/17/2013 02:26 PM, Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Fri, 5/17/13, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>
>> While developing a new conlang, I
>> came to the question of whether or
>> not the words "no" and "zero" can be the same word (when
>> "zero" is not
>> refering to the number per se) or if there are subtle
>> logical
>> distinctions between these concepts.
>>
>> Do you feel that the sentences in the following pairs have
>> different senses ? :
>>
>> "No car was sold."
>> "Zero car was sol."
>>
>> "Nothing [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T17:29:53-03:00

2013/5/17 Mechthild Czapp :
> I would like to give a few examples where 0 and no are distinct:
>
> The area code for Cologne is 0 2 2 1.
> *The area code for Cologne is no 2 2 1.

Yes, this is a case of what I referred to as "referring to the number
per se", that is, to the digit (maybe to the "signifier" instead of
the "signified"). [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T13:26:43-07:00

--- On Fri, 5/17/13, Leonardo Castro wrote:

> While developing a new conlang, I
> came to the question of whether or
> not the words "no" and "zero" can be the same word (when
> "zero" is not
> refering to the number per se) or if there are subtle
> logical
> distinctions between these concepts.
>
> Do you feel that the sentences in the following pairs have
> different senses ? :
>
> "No car was sold."
> "Zero car was sol."
>
> "Nothing happens." (~ "No thing happens.")
> "Zero thing happens." [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T21:18:28+01:00

I would like to give a few examples where 0 and no are distinct:

The area code for Cologne is 0 2 2 1.
*The area code for Cologne is no 2 2 1.

Der Film endet um 0 Uhr.
The film ends at zero o'clock. (not really commonly said, in English, but in German, Null Uhr (literally: zero hour) does not sound as wonky).
*The film ends at no o'clock. [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T17:17:57-03:00

2013/5/17 Leonardo Castro

> While developing a new conlang, I came to the question of whether or
> not the words "no" and "zero" can be the same word (when "zero" is not
> refering to the number per se) or if there are subtle logical
> distinctions between these concepts.
>
> Do you feel that the sentences in the following pairs have different
> senses ? :
>
> "No car was sold."
> "Zero car was sol."
>
> "Nothing happens." (~ "No thing happens.")
> "Zero thing happens."
>
> "No one knows that day [...]

Re: No = zero ?

2013-05-17T13:10:30-07:00

One of the words for "no" in ASL comes from zero. It's not used as a modifier like that, though (at least not to my knowledge). Evolutionarily speaking, though, it's zero that would come from "no", not the other way around.

David Peterson
LCS President
president@conlang.org
www.conlang.org

On May 17, 2013, at 1:05 PM, Leonardo Castro wrote: [...]

No = zero ?

2013-05-17T17:05:19-03:00

While developing a new conlang, I came to the question of whether or
not the words "no" and "zero" can be the same word (when "zero" is not
refering to the number per se) or if there are subtle logical
distinctions between these concepts.

Do you feel that the sentences in the following pairs have different senses ? : [...]

Too simple to be derived?

2013-05-17T16:50:58-03:00

I have read some criticism about conlangs that derive common words
from words; "bad" as "ungood", for instance (what recalls Newspeak and
Esperanto). What do you think about it? Do your conlangs have any very
common words that are derived from others? Are there examples of such
things in natlangs, say, "night" as "between-days" or "mother" as
"female parent"? [...]

Ciao for now!

2013-05-17T07:44:01+01:00

Hi,

I'm going nomail for the coming two weeks, as I'm off to
Italy tomorrow. I've left you an Outidic version of the
Lord's Prayer:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/Texts.html

I hope I've transcribed Dr Outis' text correctly ;)

Be back with you all in early June.

Ciao!

Re: Conaccents.

2013-05-16T23:11:50-04:00

> Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 12:55:01 -0300
> From: leolucas1980@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: Conaccents.
> To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU

> 2013/5/16 George Marques de Jesus :
> > 2013/5/16 Leonardo Castro leolucas1980@gmail.com

> >> For instance, my sister has
> >> conciously changed some features of her Brazilian Portuguese
> >> pronunciation that she disliked, although everybody around her spoke
> >> that way. In her (and my) native accent, there's an intrusive /i/ in
> >> words like "mas" and "três" _ [mais] and [treis] _ but she now
> >> pronounces them as [mas] and [tres]. It's maybe more [...]

Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic]

2013-05-16T19:20:38-04:00

On 15/05/2013 12:58, Douglas Koller wrote:
>> Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 12:55:21 +0100 From: Sam Stutter
>> Subject: Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic] (was: RE: Typical
>> lexicon size in natlangs) To:
>> CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU
>
>> Wait, what has this got to do with conlangs again? :)
>
> ObConlang: How do you say Coke, Pepsi, and Orangina in
> your conlangs? There, now you're covered. ;) [...]

Re: Conaccents.

2013-05-16T12:55:01-03:00

2013/5/16 George Marques de Jesus :
> 2013/5/16 Leonardo Castro
>
>
>> BTW, by "conaccent" I mean also accents created to speak natlangs,
>> including one's own native language. For instance, my sister has
>> conciously changed some features of her Brazilian Portuguese
>> pronunciation that she disliked, although everybody around her spoke
>> that way. In her (and my) native accent, there's an intrusive /i/ in
>> words like "mas" and "três" _ [mais] and [treis] _ but she now
>> pronounces them as [mas] and [tres]. It's maybe more a matter of
>> influence of orthography/origin [...]

Re: Conaccents.

2013-05-16T08:48:39-03:00

2013/5/16 Leonardo Castro

> BTW, by "conaccent" I mean also accents created to speak natlangs,
> including one's own native language. For instance, my sister has
> conciously changed some features of her Brazilian Portuguese
> pronunciation that she disliked, although everybody around her spoke
> that way. In her (and my) native accent, there's an intrusive /i/ in
> words like "mas" and "três" _ [mais] and [treis] _ but she now
> pronounces them as [mas] and [tres]. It's maybe more a matter of
> influence of orthography/origin than pronunciation prestige, because
> the most widely-broadcast accent [...]

Re: Conaccents.

2013-05-16T08:34:03-03:00

2013/5/11 Nina-Kristine Johnson :
> "Nice! And is your conlang spoken with different accents in your
> conworld (if you have one)?"--Leonardo
>
> Well by* World* you mean like Tolkien, fantasy-stuff...no.
>
> But I am making a low-budget, YouTube movie in this language (I'm a total
> amateur!). I have some scenes filmed, already and its going well.
>
> The *World* in this movie is present-day Earth and it plays with "What if
> English was not the dominate language?" (Ehenív takes the place of
> English--English is a minority language).
>
> Yes, I have a [...]

Re: Phonological alternation

2013-05-16T14:28:02+03:00

>
> Well originally the weak gradation of all of */p t k/
> was stop > voiced fricative, i.e. */β ð ɣ/. In the
> oldest written records these are spelled with
> - /β/ = > for v / V_V>
> - /ð/ =
> - /ɣ/ =
> [...]

Re: SSM3 (was Yet Another Simple Self-Segregating Morphology)

2013-05-15T22:15:24-04:00

On Mon, 13 May 2013 09:47:18 -0400, neo gu wrote:

>On Sun, 12 May 2013 16:47:18 -0400, neo gu wrote:
>>
>> Every word begins with a V- prefix, probably for syntactical function.
>> There may be medial CV- inflectional prefixes (C is a single consonant).
>> Content words end with 1 or more CC(VC)*V roots, e.g. sti, pkalo, mbelitu.
>> Function words have at least one medial but no roots. [...]

Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic] (was: RE: Typical lexicon size in natlangs)

2013-05-15T20:35:47-04:00

All diet drinks taste so strong (and bad) to me that I know in the first
sip if it's diet. And the aftertaste lingers and is hard to get rid of.

I just realized that Saweli-Saxita doesn't have a word for diet in this
sense, although it does have a word that means "diet, a plan or system
guiding what one eats". That doesn't include the sense of what one actually
eats.
"His diet includes diet drinks that aren't part of his diet." [...]

Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic] (was: RE: Typical lexicon size in natlangs)

2013-05-15T19:31:50-04:00

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:58 AM, Douglas Koller
wrote:
> ObConlang: How do you say Coke, Pepsi, and Orangina in your conlangs? There, now you're covered. ;)

gjâ-zym-byn has {kĕ'kul} for cola drinks, as well as root beer.
{kĕ'kul-cjaj}, with the suffix that specifies out a prototypical
instance of a class, is Coca-Cola; other brands of cola are e.g.
{kĕ'kul pepsi-gam}, with a foreign proper name suffix appended to the
transliterated brand name. [...]

Re: Phonological alternation

2013-05-15T20:33:10+02:00

2013-05-14 19:07, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones skrev:
> Your ex post facto explanation sounds reasonable, but
> I'm not clear on what's unreasonable about mine?
> After all, in Finnish, (by which, some of you may
> notice by my choice of vocabulary - which I intend to
> replace later - my current conlang is inspired, the
> phoneme spelt "d" in the standard written language
> surfaces as/D/,/l/ or/r/ in spoken dialects - all of
> which are very far from the/t/ which appears before
> the consonant gradation giving rise to (written) "d". [...]

Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic] (was: RE: Typical lexicon size in natlangs)

2013-05-15T15:43:53+02:00

It does taste different, just like how sugar-based coke and
syrup-based coke taste differently. Different sweetening agents have
different tastes. They don't just make it sweeter.

That said, I prefer diet coke (and solely for the taste.)

On 15 May 2013 13:55, Sam Stutter wrote:
> I tell you what annoys me - people who try and tell me that diet Coke or caffeine-free Coke tastes different to normal Coke _and_ is, for some reason, revolting.
>
> I can tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi though - Pepsi tastes more like Coke than Coke - if you [...]

Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic]

2013-05-15T13:39:40+01:00

Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic] (was: RE: Typical lexicon size in natlangs)

2013-05-15T07:58:16-04:00

> Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 12:55:21 +0100
> From: samjjs89@GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic] (was: RE: Typical lexicon size in natlangs)
> To: CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU

> Wait, what has this got to do with conlangs again? :)

ObConlang: How do you say Coke, Pepsi, and Orangina in your conlangs? There, now you're covered. ;)

Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic] (was: RE: Typical lexicon size in natlangs)

2013-05-15T12:55:21+01:00

I tell you what annoys me - people who try and tell me that diet Coke or caffeine-free Coke tastes different to normal Coke _and_ is, for some reason, revolting.

I can tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi though - Pepsi tastes more like Coke than Coke - if you see what I mean. And both are inferior in the eyes of Orangina. Wait, what has this got to do with conlangs again? :) [...]

Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic] (was: RE: Typical lexicon size in natlangs)

2013-05-15T05:31:00-05:00

On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Elena ``of Valhalla'' <
elena.valhalla@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2013-05-14 at 23:00:59 -0400, Douglas Koller wrote:
> > Can a blindfolded taste-test be far behind? Long-shot of our hapless
> taster at the mall...The big reveal...The squeal of delight...
>
> we did an informal one with our friends (poured in another room, brought
> to the tasters by somebody else, but then I'm not 100% that the one who
> poured did stay in the other room all of the time)
>
> everybody was able to distinguish between bottled coca cola [...]

Re: No Coke, Peksi [sic] (was: RE: Typical lexicon size in natlangs)

2013-05-15T10:39:03+02:00

On 2013-05-14 at 23:00:59 -0400, Douglas Koller wrote:
> Can a blindfolded taste-test be far behind? Long-shot of our hapless taster at the mall...The big reveal...The squeal of delight...

we did an informal one with our friends (poured in another room, brought
to the tasters by somebody else, but then I'm not 100% that the one who
poured did stay in the other room all of the time) [...]

Re: [THEORY] Good references on sound symbolism / phonosemantics.

2013-05-15T00:30:32-04:00

On Tue, 14 May 2013 11:07:35 -0400, Jim Henry wrote:

>On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>> Does anyone want to suggest some references on sound symbolism /
>> phonosemantics?
>
>There's the video of John Quijada's talk at LCC2. I'm not sure where
>it is, on YouTube or the LCS Podcast site or where... if the latter,
>it's probably not available at the moment with the Dreamhost problems
>LCS sites have been having.
>