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However, my latest creation, Nocha (which is a revival of my old conlang
Notya) seems to fit the "mind of its own" description quite perfectly. I
have had nearly no conscious control on it since I built the basic grammar. |
I do have what I call a "neither-verb-nor-noun" language, Notya, but I
never put anything on the web about it. |
Hehe, my Notya is also a deliberately invented sacred language of a secret
order of a parallel Earth, but I never worked a lot on it actually. |
>Conlangwise, my Notya has pitch-accent, but it's not lexical per se.
>Rather, a word in Notya has a circumflex pitch, with the maximum of pitch
>on the last syllable of the root, and the pitch going down on |
Conlangwise, my Notya has pitch-accent, but it's not lexical per se.
Rather, a word in Notya has a circumflex pitch, with the maximum of pitch
on the last syllable of the root, and the pitch going down on both sides. |
language (including Ebidesian!), with a "I", a "non-I" and a "non-person"?!!!
Or Notya, which has neither verbs nor nouns nor any conventional part of speech
whatsoever?!! Or Moten, which allows overdeclination of nouns *and* verbs, |
list of the conlang I dare speak about ;))) is:
Azak, Astou, Reman, Notya, Moten, Tj'a-ts'a~n, Chasmäöcho, Narbonósc, O,
Itakian, Maggel (I think I have them all :))) ).
but not that much in Moten. Maggel loves monstruous consonant clusters, but
they just wouldn't fit Notya, which is strictly CV(N) (with N being /n/ or /m/
and possible only at the end of a word). Chasmäöcho would sound extremely ugly |
Reman
Notya
Tj'a-ts'a~n |
>As for a language like you describe, there's always my Notya, my
>"neither-verb- |
[snip]
> As for a language like you describe, there's always my Notya, my "neither-verb-
> nor-noun" language :)) . It has all the features you describe. It doesn't even |
As for a language like you describe, there's always my Notya, my "neither-verb-
nor-noun" language :)) . It has all the features you describe. It doesn't even
enough. I currently have only Reman, Azak and Moten on the web. All my other
languages (like Notya) have been extensively discussed on the list though, so
you can search through the archives for them. Use this address: |
Reman
Notya
Tj'a-ts'a~n |
> "Eek! Its Maggel... and its brain-stunnin' orthography!"
> CG, IMHO Itakian is mischieviously brainie... and Notya
> mind-blowing... |
"Eek! Its Maggel... and its brain-stunnin' orthography!"
CG, IMHO Itakian is mischieviously brainie... and Notya mind-blowing...
but Maggel ::shakes head in mock depression and angst:: makes my poor head go |
Similar yes, identical no :)) . My Notya uses an alphasyllabary, but it needs
vowel marks even for /a/ :)) . And Itakian has a very strange system where |
Well, I first had invented a syllabary for my conlang Notya (which has a
phonology about as restrictive as the one of Japanese, so it was easy :)) ),
Later I scrapped the syllabary of Notya and made an abugadi instead, but that
was only for aesthetic reasons (the syllabary was dead ugly, and I had just |
> Well, now you make me curious. What is this interesting way of naming
> numbers? If you share, I'll tell you about Notya in which numbers are
> named by rank rather than by quantity :)) . |
> [snip]
> > If you share, I'll tell you about Notya in which numbers are named by
> rank
Hehe, each time I talk about Notya's counting system I get the same
reaction :)) . Well, you can look at:
Which is my first post about Notya's counting system and the most complete
one :) . |
[snip]
> If you share, I'll tell you about Notya in which numbers are named by rank
> rather than by quantity :)) . |
Well, now you make me curious. What is this interesting way of naming numbers?
If you share, I'll tell you about Notya in which numbers are named by rank
rather than by quantity :)) . |
Well, indeed they do in Notya. They are not only parsers (in fact, this feature
is only secondary and came by itself, I never had thought of it before :)) ) |
> I've just realised that my Notya is pretty much self-segregating at the
word
> polysyllabic simple word. But hey, self-segregation was not my aim when I
> created Notya :)) . |
I've just realised that my Notya is pretty much self-segregating at the word
level. It's managed through a strict CV structure, and a morphology where each
polysyllabic simple word. But hey, self-segregation was not my aim when I
created Notya :)) . |
> I think Notya has this "word activation" system. Or am i wrong?
Well, since I never used this expression, I guess so :)) . Notya is my so-
called "neither-verb-nor-noun lang" in that there is only one part of speech
Check the archives for more, I don't have my notes on Notya handy :(( . |
> managed to use fewer rules, or had to use more?
My Notya could be said to have no more than two grammatical rules :)) . Search
the archives for "Notya", I already extensively described the language to the
list.
<<<
I think Notya has this "word activation" system. Or am i wrong? I find that
system very naturalistic because predicates are often understandable only with |
My Notya could be said to have no more than two grammatical rules :)) . Search
the archives for "Notya", I already extensively described the language to the
list. |
Notya is pitch-accented, with a certain syllable being the peak of pitch, and
the syllables around going down in pitch the further they get from this pitch. |
purple. This compound is absolutely not a help in pinning down the meaning of
the word moten!). Notya means language (tya) of No. No describes a kind of
force, energy, chi, or whatever it may be, that some people are able to control
dark). Most of those people are grouped in a secret organisation which uses a
secret language which happens to be Notya. Reman is a Romance language, so the
name is self-explanatory :)) . Tj'a-ts'a~n just means "the Language" and is a |
> and tasty, but without meat.
> - Notya would be a chocolate mousse :)) . Very
> simple, sweet, but always nice |
- Reman would be a warm vegetarian meal :)) , light and tasty, but without meat.
- Notya would be a chocolate mousse :)) . Very simple, sweet, but always nice
at the end of a dinner :)) . |
> Not as far as I know. Does anybody know a language called Astou, Moten,
Notya,
> Azak, Reman, Tj'a-ts'a~n, Chasma"o"cho, O, or Itakian? :))) |
>Does anybody know a language called Astou, Moten, Notya,
>Azak, Reman, Tj'a-ts'a~n, Chasma"o"cho, O, or Itakian? :))) |
Not as far as I know. Does anybody know a language called Astou, Moten, Notya,
Azak, Reman, Tj'a-ts'a~n, Chasma"o"cho, O, or Itakian? :))) |
Hehe, Notya does kind of that (though the vowel marks are put inside the
consonant letter, so i don't know if you can call that "diacritic" :)) ), along
Notya does have a vowel carrier (or null consonant) but doesn't need to handle
the problem of diphtongues, since the only diphtongues it has are ya and yo. |
Well, let me think about all my languages... We begin with Astou (ouch, goes
with Azak :)) ), then Azak, Moten, Reman, Notya (a N!), Tj'a-ts'a~n,
Chasmäöcho, O, Narbonósc (another N! :)) ) and Itakian. Only three out of ten |
- Notya: has a conculture (well, a sketch, but still) and still contains in its
name the word for language. But even in its conculture it's thought to be an |
- Notya: okay, 'tya' means language :))) , but it's like Japanese -go, except
that in this case (and like 'ku|lu' in Moten), it can be used as an independent |
Impressive, because that's what my conlang Notya does! Words in Notya are
marked with one of four suffixes (all words, there are no word categories in
Notya, except maybe interjections). In fact, it's two suffixes, each one having
a terminal form and a conjunctive form (like the verb suffixes you showed). The
difference is that even what we translate as nouns use those affixes. So each
word in Notya has basically two forms, one meaning "<insert word here>", and
the other one meaning "<insert word here> and..." |
It depends on the nature of the language. For instance my Notya can be
considered to have just one rule of grammar and four suffixes (going in groups |
| Notya is essentially Japanese with all the grammar thrown out. |
Reman is essentially the prodigal son of Latin.
Notya is essentially Japanese with all the grammar thrown out.
Chasmäöcho is essentially a reader's nightmare. |
*is* ambiguity :)) . I find it so nice to have to resort to context to
understand what something means :)) . For that, my conlang Notya goes quite far
in that matter, being more ambiguous than any real language out there (that's |
substraction instead of addition. There's also this nice system (so nice that I
use it for Notya) used by some South American languages (don't remember which),
which, counting by scores, say things like "1-1-20" for "1", that's to say: "the |
> I created were really amateurish, and quite hollow really (self-critic). Merely
> trys all worth forgetting about. After it came Astou, Reman, Moten, Notya (plus
> two other projects that I would resurrect later as O and Narbonósc), and then I |
is "colour" -. I know this word expresses a concept, but I have no idea which
one). Only a few were invented on purpose (like No in Notya, which stands for a
kind of mystical energy some humans would be able to master, a little like the
definition, but I can give examples of what I feel could be considered as
mystical languages. Notya also could be considered as a mystical language in its
conculture, though it's more exactly the secret language of a mystical |
I created were really amateurish, and quite hollow really (self-critic). Merely
trys all worth forgetting about. After it came Astou, Reman, Moten, Notya (plus
two other projects that I would resurrect later as O and Narbonósc), and then I |
As for my conlangs, I have a dozen projects in various stages of completion,
namely Astou, Azak, Reman, Moten, Notya, Tj'a-ts'a~n, Chasmäöcho, Itakian, O,
Narbonósc, Arabo-Romance, plus a zillion other dead projects. |
> >
> > Probably, but that's the nice thing about Notya: all the potential
> problems that
Well, you come here at a problem with Notya, which is that I never really knew
how to handle adverbs. As for "now", "then", "here", "there", I have words for
have the compound "kime": "now, at this time". If context is clear enough, "ki"
would be used alone though. I have found in the archives the Notya sentence for
the first conlang project: "your language goes here". It was:
So it seems that Notya handles it a little like your Tyl-Seok, except that there
are no verbs like "happen-when", since they are included in the word itself
through its ending. "I eat lunch now" would be rendered in Notya certainly as: |
>
> Probably, but that's the nice thing about Notya: all the potential problems that
> it structure my cause, well it simply keeps them as they are! :) . |
Indeed, that's a strange interpretation. But well, in Notya it would be:
> > He he, when I told you that the rule of Notya was underspecification
> :) , you
Probably, but that's the nice thing about Notya: all the potential problems that
it structure my cause, well it simply keeps them as they are! :) . The result is |
> He he, when I told you that the rule of Notya was underspecification :) , you
> don't even have a word for "drive" (since when you use a car, it's usually to |
Conlang archives at:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?S2=conlang&q=Notya&s=&f=&a=&b=
where you will find quite detailed descriptions of Notya that I submitted to the
list two years ago. You will understand better the grammar and the phonology of
Notya this way.
As for the Japanese-like phonology, Notya still has more different syllables, so
it is not that ambiguous. Also, there can be a few dissyllabic roots, but
Well, since Notya has suffixes that show the actual relationships, I think it
would disambiguate easily between all those different structures. Let's see (I
function" and CO for "Conjunctive function". For the exact meaning of these
terms, look at the archives at the "Notya: a "neither-verb-nor-noun" lang?"
message thread):
He he, when I told you that the rule of Notya was underspecification :) , you
don't even have a word for "drive" (since when you use a car, it's usually to
drive it, not to carry it on your head :) ). This is usual to handle things like
that in Notya (just like "I eat food" would certainly just be "I-PR-TE
food-PR-TE". "I-EX-TE food-PR-TE" would be "I am forced to swallow food" or at
processive or existential form depends on so many factors (among them is
personal taste :) ) that I decided to follow the usual rule of thumb of Notya,
being that you have to put as many processive forms as possible.
I don't know about Notya. My principal weakness in conlanging is that I usually
don't work on lexicon at all :( ). |
....cut....
> Well, I used your system to compare Notya with Tyl-Seol, and it seems that those
> are very comparable :) . |
Funny, I can very well compare my Notya (rough meaning: language of the No) with
your Tyl-Seok. Notya is:
- nearly insolating, "active" case marking (if it has any meaning with Notya),
no copula, totally regular
- no numbers, no gender/classes, no marked case
- SOV? (this is quite meaningless in the case of Notya. I prefer to say that the
basic order is determiner-determinee, but a kind of determinee-determiner exists
(difficult to explain in a few lines).
- of course, all this is very ambiguous and Notya resorts a lot to context
- embedding structure: composed phrase is handled like simple words
/mu/ and /nu/)
- nearly exclusively monosyllabic. Bisyllabic stems (like Notya) are composed
(no+tya)
Notya is the language of a secret society living (maybe) *now* on Earth. Nobody
knows for sure but the most common belief among the Notya-speaking people is
that it's a constructed language, maybe loosely based on the native language of
Well, I used your system to compare Notya with Tyl-Seol, and it seems that those
are very comparable :) . |
Notya is the language of a secret society of people who have in common the
control of the No, a kind of spiritual energy, kind of a magic, allowing also |
Well, it depends... Among my conlangs, Moten, Notya and Tj'a-ts'a~n use
neither "q" nor "x". Chasmäöcho uses "q" as well as "c" for /k/ (but "c" also |
>
> In Notya and Chasmäöcho, prepositions are just verbs (well, more in Chasmäöcho
> then in Notya, as in Notya, there are no such things as nouns, verbs or
> prepositions...). In Chasmäöcho, "to" and "to go to" are just identical. |
In Notya and Chasmäöcho, prepositions are just verbs (well, more in Chasmäöcho
then in Notya, as in Notya, there are no such things as nouns, verbs or
prepositions...). In Chasmäöcho, "to" and "to go to" are just identical. |
> would be considered like an object of the verb? That's what I do In Chasmäöcho
> and Notya.
> |
would be considered like an object of the verb? That's what I do In Chasmäöcho
and Notya. |
maybe that's what Christophe felt with Notya.
because i believe that you "feel" that stuff and you can't really explain it. |
my
>Notya, even if I like to see it more like a Neither-Verb-Nor-Noun
language, |
Many pidgins and creoles use this system. I find it pretty nice, and the
structure of Notya seems quite fit to serial verb contructions. |
I understood correctly the philosophy of the language). And there's also my
Notya, even if I like to see it more like a Neither-Verb-Nor-Noun language,
with only one part-of-speech (really, only one, not even particles :) ). |
He he! Seeing myself in such a high-level post :) . Notya (that's the
language) is really a mystery, even for me. The complete grammar of it lies
'behaviour' and 'entity' is interesting Mathias, I wonder if I could use it
for Notya, it would be an easier way than the one I usually use to explain
how this language works, and seems to fit nicely the language. Thus I would
"
Notya is written with a special script, something between the devanagari
script and the Arabic alphabet. It can be thought as a "syllabic alphabet",
VOWELS:
Notya has seven vowels. Four of them are the cardinal a, e, o and u. One is
translitterated i. It is pronounced /i/ under accent, i-like schwa (IPA
STRESS:
The stress in Notya is a kind of tonal curve over the whole word. The curve
is called "circonflex" (rising-falling), the node of this curve being on
"enu kan" is pronounced as one stressed word, stressed on the syllable 'e'.
NOTE 2: Compounding in Notya exists. Phrases with a lexical determination
are compacted to become a single word. For example: sjhen con (read-EX-TE
As you can't talk of nouns and verbs, you can't talk of subject, verb,
object places and other things that usually define a sentence. So in Notya,
you define a sentence as the asssociation between a theme (what you are
already known and you'd have to use the definite article in English). As
the rheme comes always at the end of the sentence in Notya, you would answer: |
it becomes quite like stone, and changes are merely additions or
reinterpretations (like when I reinterpreted the stress-accent of Notya as
a pitch-accent, but without changing anything on what I wrote before). |
>Thanks :) Very interesting approach. I was surprised by a few of the
>similarities Notya has to draqa, among them an existential form, a final
>and joining form for roots, the theme-rheme approach and strict |
> to take a look at Draqa (and the other verb-noun-less lang)
> and Notya. The only thing I know about Draqa is a poem you
> posted about a week ago and a bunch of pronouns and classifiers. |
> Okay, now I have a little time to share :) . So here a little more about
> Notya (again! :) ). I just copy here what I already said once to the list :) :
>
Thanks :) Very interesting approach. I was surprised by a few of the
similarities Notya has to draqa, among them an existential form, a final
and joining form for roots, the theme-rheme approach and strict |
Most of my conlangs have fixed stress (Notya, Azak, Moten has no
distinctive stress in fact, Tj'a-ts'a~n words are stressed on the last -or |
>(?sp), which at the time also had four particles to clarify relationships,
>but worked differently. I wonder if Notya can provide us with yet a third
>possibility? Please, share!
Okay, now I have a little time to share :) . So here a little more about
Notya (again! :) ). I just copy here what I already said once to the list :) :
"enu kan" is pronounced as one stressed word, stressed on the syllable 'e'.
NOTE 2: Compounding in Notya exists. Phrases with a lexical determination
are compacted to become a single word. For example: sjhen con (read-EX-TE
As you can't talk of nouns and verbs, you can't talk of subject, verb,
object places and other things that usually define a sentence. So in Notya,
you define a sentence as the asssociation between a theme (what you are
already known and you'd have to use the definite article in English). As
the rheme comes always at the end of the sentence in Notya, you would answer: |
> > I tried to do that with Notya, which has a structure
> > unlike any other language, and still may be human enough
> > The main idea of Notya is: no nouns, no verbs, nothing that
> > looks like them, but roots and four suffixes to give the
> (?sp), which at the time also had four particles to clarify relationships,
> but worked differently. I wonder if Notya can provide us with yet a third
> possibility? Please, share!
Anyway. Both Notya and Draqa seems very interesting, but
Christophe still hasn't updated his website... ;) and as for
to take a look at Draqa (and the other verb-noun-less lang)
and Notya. The only thing I know about Draqa is a poem you
posted about a week ago and a bunch of pronouns and classifiers. |
> I tried to do that with Notya, which has a structure unlike any other
> language, and still may be human enough to be understandable after some
>
> The main idea of Notya is: no nouns, no verbs, nothing that looks like
> them, but roots and four suffixes to give the "grammatical" relation
(?sp), which at the time also had four particles to clarify relationships,
but worked differently. I wonder if Notya can provide us with yet a third
possibility? Please, share! |
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Notya (was RE: "Sentient")
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
> The main idea of Notya is: no nouns, no verbs, nothing
> that looks like |
I tried to do that with Notya, which has a structure unlike any other
language, and still may be human enough to be understandable after some
The main idea of Notya is: no nouns, no verbs, nothing that looks like
them, but roots and four suffixes to give the "grammatical" relation |
> Who is the Noli by chance? We in the US and like have Piglatin, but it
> is just English modified, how is Notya different from the main lingo of
> the Noli?
by a Noli. As well as the mastering of No, the teacher will also learn
to the student Notya, the comon language of the Noli which functions de
facto as a secret language for this diaspora. The Noli can come from
agreement of the other person(s)). In fact, nobody knows really where
Notya comes from, even the oldest Noli. Its structure is so far from
common natlangs that there is a discussion among the Noli about whether
Classical Latin. Its use as a secret language seems to have frozen its
evolution and Notya has nearly not changed in the last 5 centuries
(except for the evolution of the lexicon). |
Who is the Noli by chance? We in the US and like have Piglatin, but it
is just English modified, how is Notya different from the main lingo of
the Noli?
That's exactly how the Noli use Notya, as a secret language for
their
diaspora. The discussion among them being whether Notya is an invented
language, a natural language or an "engineered" natural language. |
As for conlang, I have both extremes, with Azak and Notya with only two
punctuation marks (their particular writing systems even allow to write |
- Notya: its particular writing system (with the first letter englobing
the whole word) allows words to be written without spaces between them, |
That's exactly how the Noli use Notya, as a secret language for their
diaspora. The discussion among them being whether Notya is an invented
language, a natural language or an "engineered" natural language. |
I don't know exactly. Azak, Moten and Notya don't have any gender
division, even for the pronouns. Azak resorts to adjectives when gender
them VCVC!). Reman, Moten and Chasma"o"cho are written with the Roman
alphabet or something derived from it. Notya is written with a kind of
alpha-syllabary, and Tj'a-ts'a~n with ideograms that are also used for |
morphological constraints are generally different, which gives a
different feeling for each language. For instance, Moten and Notya have
similar phonologies, but Moten has a relatively free morphology whereas
Notya allows only C(y)V (y being /j/) syllables as well as syllabic n
and m at the end of words, so the feeling given by the two languages is
- Notya: No preferred order (maybe SOV), "active", compounding, four
inflections for all words, no distinction at all between nouns and verbs |
I have just a small question. Did you receive my mail about Notya's
pitch accent patten? I don't remember seeing it coming back to my |
Organization: Philips Research
Subject: Notya's pitch accent
During my week of holidays, I didn't work very much on language :), but
I nevertheless discovered an interesting feature of Notya: it has a
pitch accent!
I already told you that Notya had an intensity accent that always falls
on the last syllable of a root or radical, and that unaccented words
stress, the pitch accent is completely regular (exceptions can be found
but only in poetry, as it seems that the poetry in Notya is based on the
pitch accent of words). It may be a proof that this language (which is
As usual, I welcome all your comments. Is such a pattern naturalistic
or not (not that it will change anything, as Notya has certainly, if not
an artificial origin, at least a large part of human engineering in it)? |
notes right here) that means normally simply "one". But the numerical
system of Notya is very special (based on rank instead of quantity), and
in this system, numbers can be very long or abbreviated (typically, to |
I have that feeling too, and I think that the Azak script is really
ugly, as was the former Notya syllabary. I like my new Nosjhe script
however, even if I think that many (con)scripts are better. At least I |
Personnally I think Notya or Chasma"o"cho or Moten are the best
choices, but I can't decide. I try to come up with the sentence this |
much.
- Notya: completely regular, but it is the secret language of an
organisation and its very special grammar is already difficult enough :) |
Finally, Boudewijn kindly created a font for my language Notya, font
that is available at
impressed by the speed at which Boudewijn created it), and it will
oblige me to add Notya on my homepage as soon as I am back in France :)
. |
> I call
>> it "context" and often resort to it (like in Notya). |
I call
> it "context" and often resort to it (like in Notya). |
I think you're right there. This idea of an "inplied standard", I call
it "context" and often resort to it (like in Notya). |
(who is dreaming of Moten.conlang.org, Azak.conlang.org,
Reman.conlang.org, Notya.conlang.org, Tj'a-ts'a~n.conlang.org -oops, a
tricky one-, etc...) |
particles. This is yet original compared to what I'm used to doing (see
Notya for example). |
I shouldn't, I know I shouldn't. I still have many projects in
building, Tj'a-ts'a~n, translations in Moten, webpage about Notya, work
in real life, etc... but I can't help it. The bricks of a new language |
mbiguous letters. The only exceptions are the the Roman transliteration
of Notya, where the groups s+ya and s+yo are written ca and co to
reflect the change of prononciation /Sa/ and /So/, and my Romance |
Well, I don't find any limit to the "workable" in fact. In my languages,
the number of cases range from 1 (Notya and Reman, even if Reman has also a
kind of genitive, but its use is very narrowed) to 34 (Tj'a-ts'a~n). Moten |
Of course, that is what happens to Notya (at a very slow rate, as Notya is
over all a written, second language with some oral use). Even if it still |
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