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CONLANG  October 2003, Week 3

CONLANG October 2003, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Elves and Ill Bethisad

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:32:18 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (146 lines)

I notice that my mention of the "Elves and Ill Bethisad" affair
has stirred quite a bit of discussion.

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 17:24:17 -0400,
John Cowan <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> J?rg Rhiemeier scripsit:
>
> > I feel reluctant to re-introduce them to Ill Bethisad because
> >
> > (1) I think they put a strain on that world's framework;
>
> The other two points are personal to you, of course; but this one,
> at least, is not the case.  The Elves are no more a problem than the
> Kashubians.  And it neatly explains what IB-JRRT was up to.

Well, it is indeed not so big a problem, but I found that
I couldn't do what I wanted to given the state of Ill Bethisad.
My ideas about the Elves just didn't fit the overall style
of the world.

> > (3) in my opinion, Ill Bethisad has moved into a direction
> >     I don't prefer.
>
> IMO, IB has moved in so many directions simultaneously that there is
> no longer much point in speaking of it "moving into a direction".
> I regret that some people have bailed out, and it's plain that some
> cultures (like the Fortunatians) couldn't possibly fit there: the
> whole of history is inconsistent.

This is part of the problem.  The history is *grossly* inconsistent,
there are too many things that clash with each other to mention.
It is true that my Elves would not make things worse, but I don't
want to toss them into that bin.

It also struck me that the timeline shows a massive shortage of
progressive politics.  There are still quasi-feudal social structures
in Dunein; human sacrifices on the Arvorec islands; environmantalism
exists mainly in the totalitarian, back-to-the-stone-age form
of ecotopism, etc.

> > I have gone through that hassle *twice*, and it ended in
> > frustration on both sides both times.  Costentin/Padraic seems
> > to have disliked my "Elves" from the start, though Andrew
> > welcomed them to Ill Bethisad and John liked them too.
>
> And I still do.

Thank you!  But that doesn't mean that I am obliged to re-enter
Ill Bethisad.  It is still my decision which shared worlds
I join with which contributions.  I actually considered re-joining
Ill Bethisad several times, not with the Elves, but with Germanech,
but that too would clash with several other factors.

>       Adding to IB's time-depth is a Good Thing, which is
> one reason that I thought Judajca was an excellent addition.  IB is
> a great stew, and adding more flavor(s) can only help it.

I am not sure about adding more flavors only helping it.
To me, Ill Bethisad is a chaotic mess with way too many different
"flavors" already.  Each author seems to have its own idea of
what the world of Ill Bethisad looks like, resulting in a patchy,
inconsistent world where no-one really knows what is going on.

It is a tell-tale sign, I think, that Andrew Smith, who as we
all know set the thing in motion initially, has withdrawn
from Ill Bethisad altogether.

> > But as Padraic is the one where all the threads run together,
>
> Umm, I think both he and I would contest that!

Well, at least he is running the web site, which gets quite close
to a central role in the project.

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:07:32 -0700,
Costentin Cornomorus <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> [...]
>
> > > I have gone through that hassle *twice*, and
> > > it ended in
> > > frustration on both sides both times.
> > > Costentin/Padraic seems
> > > to have disliked my "Elves" from the start,
>
> Sir, you may address me in the second person. I
> am present, accounted for and am addressing you!

I know!  I used the 3rd person because the 2nd person is rather
ambiguous in a message broadcast to hundreds of people.

> I don't recall disliking them at all - but I
> suspect that's all water passed through the dike
> now.

Well, you never seemed to be very happy with them, judging
from your comments back then.  And you were damn hard to
deal with.

> > > But as Padraic is the one where all the
> > > threads run together
> >
> > Umm, I think both he and I would contest that!
>
> Certainly. I have relatively little to do with
> IB. I just make sure the fire is stoked and the
> web page is updated.

Well, that is quite much.  You keep the web site, and
in a way, you are thus in control what is "canonical"
in IB.  (BTW: Mindon Gwar is still on your map of Kemr.
That was an Elvish city, and thus it doesn't exist
in Ill Bethisad.)

> [...]
>
> > Andrew and I came up with the idea of starting
> > Ill Bethisad all over again,
>
> Curiouser and curiouser. Extremely curious, in
> fact...
>
> > a project that later received the name
> > "Dragon & Star" after the heraldic devices of >
> Kemr and the Elves. However, Dragon & Star has >
> seen little work by either Andrew or me so far.
>
> Hm. Shame.

It seems to please you that Dragon & Star hasn't made
substantial progress yet, and your comments seem to
imply that you take the mere existence of D&S
as an offence.  I apologize to you if I mis-interpret
you.  No, I can assure you that we don't mean to offend
*anyone*.  It is that Andrew and I thought that we could
do with a common framework for Brithenig and the Elves
without entangling ourselves with the chaotic mess
Ill Bethisad has become.  We both have ideas about our
concultures that no longer fit into what IB has become,
and thus we created Dragon & Star to explore them.

Greetings,

Jörg.

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October 2009, Week 2
October 2009, Week 1
September 2009, Week 5
September 2009, Week 4
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August 2009, Week 4
August 2009, Week 3
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August 2009, Week 1
July 2009, Week 5
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July 2009, Week 2
July 2009, Week 1
June 2009, Week 5
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June 2009, Week 3
June 2009, Week 2
June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 5
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
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September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
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August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
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July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
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March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
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February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 3
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October 2006, Week 1
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September 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
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June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
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April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 3
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February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
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September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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May 2003, Week 3
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May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
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February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 3
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December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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