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CONLANG  March 2004, Week 2

CONLANG March 2004, Week 2

Subject:

Re: What makes a good conlang? (was Re: Super OT: Re: CHAT: JRRT)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 10 Mar 2004 00:59:24 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (214 lines)

Hallo!

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:08:07 -0500,
"H. S. Teoh" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 09, 2004 at 02:50:59AM -0500, David Peterson wrote:
> [...]
> > Now, I don't disagree.  In fact, I agree with what you wrote
> > here--especially when you consider universalists, who've taken the view
> > that not only can all languages be systematically described, but they
> > can all be systematically described in basically the same way, with a
> > handful of language-specific stipulations (which usually amount to, IMO,
> > the language itself).  The counterexample to this would be a linguist
> > who assumes that a language can only be understood within itself, and so
> > the linguist attempts to discover the systematicity of the language on
> > its own, rather than on comparing it to other languages, or trying to
> > make it conform to universal constraints.
>
> In my view, a language expresses the culture that produced it, not
> necessarily in a superficial sense (eg. in the precise phonemes or word
> endings), but certainly within its deeper fabric. While it may certainly
> be possible to extricate a natlang from its cultural context and use it in
> a utilitarian way, my opinion is that doing this deprives the language of
> its unique identity. What sets a language apart are its idioms, unique
> way(s) of expressing something, and idiosyncrasies. Without these, it
> might as well be an auxlang. (Not to be perjorative, but I find auxlangs a
> bit too mechanical and inorganic.)

I whole-heartedly agree, being the naturalist that I am.  In order to
have "life", a conlang must have a backdrop of culture and history
associated with it.  As I have pointed out before, Tolkien is a good
example of this: as we all know, he created Middle-earth as a backdrop
for his languages, and this in turn is part of the "magic" of the
languages he created.  Many people on this list endeavour the same,
though not necessarily in the same large scale.  The "Ill Bethisad"
shared world has this in common with Middle-earth: it primarily
exists as a backdrop for the participants' conlangs.

> [...]
>
> > From a design point of view, I think one should consider realistic
> > anachronisms.  Just because something can't be explained systematically
> > doesn't mean that it should be totally off the wall.

Irregularities in a conlang are a good way of introducing a sense of
virtual time depth.

> Right. Which is why, after I started to gain more conlanging experience, I
> realized that some aspects of EbisÚdian went a bit too far.

Well, given the alienness of the Ferochromon universe, there is ample
room for strangenesses in EbisÚdian.  It is a language spoken in a
place utterly unlike the world we know; why shouldn't it be utterly
unlike any language we know?

>       That's why I
> started working on TamahÝ before EbisÚdian was developed enough to my
> satisfaction. (My original plan was to complete EbisÚdian, or at least
> bring it to a more-or-less "complete" state in the sense And described,
> before I work on any other conlang.) Nevertheless, I didn't---and still
> don't---feel that the case system was too off-the-wall. ;-)

The EbisÚdian case system is unlike anything I have ever seen, but
it makes sense in its own way.  A respectable achievement.

> [snip]
> > [...] a plural, some have the standard form, whatever that may be.  Now
> > you've got a rather unsystematic (fairly), completely nonproductive,
> > universal-violating anachronism in your language, but it's more
> > believable because it gives the hint of a previous status, i.e., it may
> > be indicative of a productive process from the past.

Yep.

> That is what I've tried to do in the EbisÚdian lexicon. Although most of
> the entries are more-or-less arbitrary, I did try to give an impression
> that there is some internal, unseen consistency; eg., I would recycle
> suffixes, infixes, etc., to give the impression that they are vestiges of
> an ancestor lang, although in reality there really isn't any consistent
> pattern.

Yes; many languages have opaque derivational affixes, which have meaning
#1 in word X and meaning #2 in word Y, while the same meaning is
expressed
by different affixes in different words, etc., and it can add a sense
of history to emulate it in a conlang.

> [snip]
> > With a phonemic inventory, let's say you had...
> >
> > p t k
> > b d g
> > m n N
> > f s x
> > v z G
> > w l j
> >
> > It'd be particularly strange if you had, in addition to these, a voiced
> > lateral fricative.  It'd be totally out of left-field.  It'd be less
> > strange if you had /q/, though.
>
> Now as far as EbisÚdian phonology is concerned, it is strange not because
> of the presence of off-the-wall sounds, but because it has an overly
> consistent set of sounds. It has the full range of velars, dentals, and
> labials (voiced/unvoiced fricatives, nasal, voiced/unvoiced/aspirated
> stops) and an almost full range of postalveolar affricates, plus [l] and
> [r`].

Why not?

My Old Albic system, then, is perhaps also a bit too regular:

  p  t  k
  b  d  g
  m  n  N
  f  T  x
     s     h
  w  r  j
     l

But at least, /s/, /l/ and /h/ stick out, and the semivowels do not
fit their positions perfectly, so I think it is OK to have it in a
naturalist artlang.  I have seen natlang systems which are just
as regular.

>       Not that having such a rich inventory of sounds is odd, just that I
> basically catalogued all the sounds I could pronounce at the time and just
> threw them all into EbisÚdian.

Some of my earlier conlangs were like that, too.  The result was a
phoneme inventory that was a union of the inventories of German (my L1)
and English, and pretty much the same in all my conlangs.  Only later
I learned to be more systematic about phonologies.

>       The complete lack of vowel glides and
> diphthongs was also strange, especially with the admittedly artificial
> device of inserting glottal stops between every pair of vowels. I tried to
> remedy this unrealistic situation in TamahÝ by dropping out many of the
> sounds (most of the fricatives were elided, and the all-too-prevalent
> glottal stops were completely gone... and there are now nice diphthongs!
> :-P).

Yes, it is fun to change a language into a typologically different
language.

> [snip]
> > So, what I would say is that a knowledge of linguistics and typology can
> > still give you an idea about realistic unsystematicity.
>
> As they say, before you can break the rules, you have to first know what
> the rules are.

Yes.  Though if one doesn't know the rules, one can inadvertently break
them, of course.

> [snip]
> > Joerg wrote:
> >
> > <<People who follow their intuition often create better and more
> > realistic art than people who try to be exact.>>
> >
> > The only caveat I'd add to this is that, with visual art, for example,
> > there's little chance of someone being influenced by anything other than
> > their own intuitions if they choose to follow simply their own
> > intuitions.  In conlanging you run the risk of emulating your L1, or any
> > other language you know.

True.

> OTOH, one should be careful not to go on an anti-L1 binge, which usually
> produces frankenlangs like EbisÚdian. :-P :-P

Also true.

> > So I'd say it's important to draw a distinction between the instinct of
> > what sounds right/makes sense, and what sounds right/makes sense
> > *within* the framework of the language one's inventing. After all, I
> > think we've all probably seen examples (and, indeed, I've *been* an
> > example) of someone doing something because they think it sounds/feels
> > right, and what they do ends up emulating English, or some other known
> > languages, almost exactly.
>
> Totally agree. A realistic conlang, IMHO, must be consistent within its
> own framework, both linguistically and culturally.

I agree.

>       Strange as the result
> might have been, when I was designing EbisÚdian I felt that it would be
> stranger if a language spoken in such an alien universe had an Earth-like
> vocabulary.

Sure.

>       So I allowed the perceptions of the EbisÚdi to be molded by
> the universe around them---perhaps a bit too much in retrospect, but
> nevertheless---and thus, indirectly, through the culture that the EbisÚdi
> formed, the language was influenced to a large degree to reflect the
> con-world. The result may make one cringe, but I do feel quite happy with
> many parts of EbisÚdian that I feel match the con-world beautifully, much
> more than would have been possible if I had simply transplanted a Terran
> language (or Terran-like lang) into the con-world.

Agreed.  Strange worlds give birth to strange languages.  Why in the
world
should EbisÚdian have a word for "star", for instance, if there are
no stars in Ferochromon?  The result is the dreaded relay-killer that
EbisÚdian is famous for.  But it only makes sense that way.
So I would say that EbisÚdian is indeed a good conlang.

Greetings,

J÷rg.

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June 2011, Week 3
June 2011, Week 2
June 2011, Week 1
May 2011, Week 5
May 2011, Week 4
May 2011, Week 3
May 2011, Week 2
May 2011, Week 1
April 2011, Week 5
April 2011, Week 4
April 2011, Week 3
April 2011, Week 2
April 2011, Week 1
March 2011, Week 5
March 2011, Week 4
March 2011, Week 3
March 2011, Week 2
March 2011, Week 1
February 2011, Week 4
February 2011, Week 3
February 2011, Week 2
February 2011, Week 1
January 2011, Week 5
January 2011, Week 4
January 2011, Week 3
January 2011, Week 2
January 2011, Week 1
December 2010, Week 5
December 2010, Week 4
December 2010, Week 3
December 2010, Week 2
December 2010, Week 1
November 2010, Week 5
November 2010, Week 4
November 2010, Week 3
November 2010, Week 2
November 2010, Week 1
October 2010, Week 5
October 2010, Week 4
October 2010, Week 3
October 2010, Week 2
October 2010, Week 1
September 2010, Week 5
September 2010, Week 4
September 2010, Week 3
September 2010, Week 2
September 2010, Week 1
August 2010, Week 5
August 2010, Week 4
August 2010, Week 3
August 2010, Week 2
August 2010, Week 1
July 2010, Week 5
July 2010, Week 4
July 2010, Week 3
July 2010, Week 2
July 2010, Week 1
June 2010, Week 5
June 2010, Week 4
June 2010, Week 3
June 2010, Week 2
June 2010, Week 1
May 2010, Week 5
May 2010, Week 4
May 2010, Week 3
May 2010, Week 2
May 2010, Week 1
April 2010, Week 5
April 2010, Week 4
April 2010, Week 3
April 2010, Week 2
April 2010, Week 1
March 2010, Week 5
March 2010, Week 4
March 2010, Week 3
March 2010, Week 2
March 2010, Week 1
February 2010, Week 4
February 2010, Week 3
February 2010, Week 2
February 2010, Week 1
January 2010, Week 5
January 2010, Week 4
January 2010, Week 3
January 2010, Week 2
January 2010, Week 1
December 2009, Week 5
December 2009, Week 4
December 2009, Week 3
December 2009, Week 2
December 2009, Week 1
November 2009, Week 5
November 2009, Week 4
November 2009, Week 3
November 2009, Week 2
November 2009, Week 1
October 2009, Week 5
October 2009, Week 4
October 2009, Week 3
October 2009, Week 2
October 2009, Week 1
September 2009, Week 5
September 2009, Week 4
September 2009, Week 3
September 2009, Week 2
September 2009, Week 1
August 2009, Week 5
August 2009, Week 4
August 2009, Week 3
August 2009, Week 2
August 2009, Week 1
July 2009, Week 5
July 2009, Week 4
July 2009, Week 3
July 2009, Week 2
July 2009, Week 1
June 2009, Week 5
June 2009, Week 4
June 2009, Week 3
June 2009, Week 2
June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 5
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 3
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September 1998, Week 3

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