Hallo!

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:55:57 -0400, Craig Daniel wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> 
> wrote: 
> > Hallo!
> > [...]
> > I don't know about the Sidhe of that book, so I cannot comment on what
> > kind of language to expect from them.
> 
> They are based on mythic fairies, and are described as far more
> magically capable than humans but with diminished reasoning abilities
> (at one point their minds are compared to those of children).
> Magicians sometimes summon them, and it is unclear to what extent it's
> possible to become a truly powerful magician without doing so
> regularly.
> 
> I see no particular evidence in the book that their language is
> inherently magical. On the other hand, everything in their lives
> connects at least a tiny bit to magic, so having their language carry
> mystical power would certainly fit - and it would explain why Mr
> Norrel (a singularly well-read human magician who doesn't much care
> for the fey but summons one at one point anyhow) greets the Gentleman
> with the Thistle-Down Hair (a fairy he's just summoned) in Latin
> rather than Sidhe.
> 
> Also, I would expect its grammar to be in some way more attuned to
> limited mental capacity - which my own instinct is to take to mean
> stricter structure, since you can't rely on your interlocutor glorking
> what exactly you meant from context.

If they have limited mental capacity, one would *not* expect their
language to be excessively dense and complex - to the contrary.
The Sidhe language would then be very simple and rigid in structure,
and perhaps highly redundant.

> > Yes, this is often said about Elvish languages in books, role-playing
> > games and other media.  Yet, most elflangs do not live up to such
> > "ideals" - not even Tolkien's, which, while belonging to the best
> > conlangs ever made (in my humble opinion, that is), are not
> > exceedingly complex and also not very exotic.  They would easily fit
> > into the linguistic landscape of Europe, being typologically similar
> > to Indo-European (especially Celtic) and Uralic languages.  One could
> > argue that Quenya and Sindarin would fit human speakers better than
> > a race of immortal demigods like Tolkien's Elves.
> 
> Partly, I think, the Professor wanted them to fit the linguistic
> landscape of Earth - and made them do so even at the expense of
> regular sound changes making sense. (Really, p -> f / #_  or whatever
> in all words is not something that seems likely to catch on as a fad
> among the youth even if they do it to a word or two.)
> 
> I'm still an admirer of his languages, but they don't seem to fit the
> physiology of his elves to me.

Indeed.  Tolkien has often been criticized that with an immortal Elven
race, sound changes as they happen in human languages would not make
sense.  Elven children are few and far between, and there are some
*very* old Elves around who still remember how people spoke 10,000
years ago - how, then, should their language change just like a human
language?  At least, the language should change very slowly, if at all.
Tolkien himself apparently realized that there lay a problem, and came
up with his 'fashion fad' theory of Elvish language change, which,
however, does not look very convincing to me.

This is not a problem with my Albic languages, because their speakers
are ordinary mortal humans.

... brought to you by the Weeping Elf