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CONLANG  April 2010, Week 3

CONLANG April 2010, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Evolution of language (was: multi-modal language (was: Nika Introduction))

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:50:42 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (126 lines)

Hallo!

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:24:04 +0100, R A Brown wrote:

> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> [snip]
> >   [Homo erectus_, Neanderthals and their ilk] certainly could not talk
> > about things they could not imagine, 
> 
> Nor, of course, can we    :)
> 
> We might in hyperbole say that something is unimaginable, 
> but by the very act of thinking about whatever it is, we 
> have imagined it, even if to realize what we have imagined 
> is an (apparent) impossibility in the world as we understand it.

Yes.  When we can talk about it, we can imagine it.

> > and their imagination was apparently
> > restricted to the immediately perceivable real world.  
> 
> That we cannot know for certain - if only time travel were 
> possible!

Indeed, we cannot know, but the archaeological evidence speaks for the
assumption that their imagination was much more limited than ours.

> [snip]
> > 
> >> Most animals have a fixed set of instinctive signals, consisting of  
> >> sound, chemicals, gestures, colours or whatever, and no way to extend  
> >> them.
> > 
> > Yes.  These systems are closed - new signs could not be added.  Also,
> > they lack grammar.
> 
> I recall that long years ago when I was a teenager someone 
> gave a talk about the language of cats on what was then 
> called 'The Third Programme' on BBC radio.  I remember next 
> to nothing about the talk except that the speaker claimed 
> cats did have nouns & verbs and that verbs had two moods: 
> indicative & imperative.
> 
> I suppose it depends what one means by grammar. Trask, I 
> note, gives three definitions of "grammar", his first being:
> "The system by which the words and morphemes of a language 
> are organized into larger units, particularly into 
> sentences, perceived as existing independently of any 
> attempt at describing it."
> 
> That brings up the question of what one means by "word'   ;)

Yes.  "Word" is a difficult concept.
 
> But it seems to me there is some sort of organization of 
> elements in, e.g. bird song or the various groans, moans, 
> whistles, clicks or, with some, complex 'singing' of 
> cetaceans. I would be loath to say that these systems lack 
> any grammar at all.

Indeed.  I think it is in those cases meaningful to speak of "grammar",
even if we don't know aught about the meanings of those "songs".

> I think that, like physical organs such as eyes, ears etc, 
> communication/language was evolving over the ages and did 
> not suddenly appear with the arrival of hominins.

Yes.  It evolved gradually.

> [...]
> 
> >> I don't think he was right. Rather their language was more like  
> >> Chimpanzeese.
> > 
> > That is in my opinion an overstatement.  I think Neanderthal language
> > was more similar to Homo sapiens language than to "Chimpanzeese" in
> > many respects.  As I said above, it may have sounded quite much like
> > human language, with vowels, consonants and syllables, even with words
> > that are more or less arbitrary in their sound-meaning relation; 
> 
> The more I find out about the Neanderthals, the more 
> convinced I become that what Jörg has written in paragraph 
> above is correct.
> 
> > but
> > with more restricted grammar.  In this important point it may indeed
> > have been more ape-like than human-like.
> 
> I suspect Neanderthals did not construct sentences such as 
> Ciceronian periods; but I suspect their grammar was closer 
> to ours than to the (non-hominid) great apes.

Yes.  It would be too much to say that they did not have grammar; but
most likely, their grammars were somewhat less sophisticated than ours.
We'll probably never know, unless some cryptozoologists who claim to
have spotted surviving Neanderthals in the Caucasus turn out to be right.
(And if there are really some surviving Neanderthals, we cannot be sure
whether their languages haven't been influenced by those of neighbouring
humans, rendering the results unreliable; or their languages turn out
to be so alien and impenetrable that we cannot analyze them.)

> [snip]
> > 
> > This may be the case.  We are far from understanding the songs of birds
> > and cetaceans.  What we know is that they are often very complex; 
> 
> Exactly!!
> 
> > their
> > *meaning*, however, if that is the right words, remains unknown.
> 
> I'm sure there is some meaning there.

Certainly.  They definitely do that to *express* something; what regards
the nature and contents of that expression, however, we don't know.

In _Life, the Universe and Everything_ (the third volume of Douglas
Adams's hilarious Hitchhiker cycle), Arthur Dent finally learns the
language of birds, only to realize how boring bird-talk actually is
- they talk about wind velocities and other technicalia of flight all
the time, and quite a lot about berries.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html

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April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
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November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
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October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
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August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
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June 2008, Week 5
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June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 5
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March 2007, Week 5
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March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
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February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 3
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July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
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May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
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July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
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June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
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July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
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May 2004, Week 3
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April 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
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December 2003, Week 3
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December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
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November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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August 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 3
July 1999, Week 2
July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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