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Hallo!
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 18:18:17 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
> Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> > Hallo!
> >
> > On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 07:41:39 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
> [snip]
> >> Yep - tho several interesting similarities with the
> >> Italic branch have led some to posit an earlier
> >> 'Italo-Celtic' subdivision.
> >
> > Yes. While some of these similarities are probably
> > archaisms, others appear to be genuine shared
> > innovations, but they are not many, and the whole matter
> > very controversial.
>
> Yes, it is. but IMO one cannot dismiss the possibilty.
Indeed. It is seriously discussed by specialists (for instance,
the late, lamented Warren Cowgill was pro Italo-Celtic) and
certainly not crackpot faire.
> > [Pidgin Punic hypothesis]
> > I have heard of that, yes, but in my opinion it is utter
> > tosh. Apart from noting that such a trade jargon would
> > not be likely to replace the native languages of the
> > entire British Isles,
>
> Well, English has come close to doing that. But even by the
> 7th cent, much of Brittonic speaking Britain had given way
> either to Gaelic or to various Norse and Saxon dialects. The
> Britons held on only in the western part.
But English was not a trade jargon spoken in a few ports along
the southern coast. It was the language of a massive wave of
conquerors who came to stay, and brought in their families.
> > one can definitely say that the
> > Insular Celtic languages with their complex grammars
> > (especially Old Irish; the younger Goidelic languages as
> > well as the British ones have simplified a bit, but still
> > have a more complex morphosyntax than to expect from a
> > creole) do not look at all like creoles of any sort!
>
> I agree with you over Irish. Old Irish has a very complex
> morphology and doesn't give the appearance, as far as I
> know, of any creolization.
Right.
> But from what I understand the 'Celtic' languages of Britain
> & Gaul had morphologies more similar to what we find in
> Latin. The "weirdness" of Welsh, Cornish and Breton develops
> together with a reduction in morphology, especially with
> nouns, and also there's a growing tendency, which continues
> to the present day, to use analytical verb forms rather than
> synthetic ones; one could believe some degree of
> creolization took place.
The Brythonic languages have lost their case system, yes, and
have no absolute/conjunct distinction in their verbal inflections,
though there are traces of the latter in Old Welsh. The tendency
towards analytical verb forms is a fairly recent one, and cannot
be blamed on a Pre-Celtic substratum. Also, I wouldn't consider
the simplification of the PIE verb system one can see in Latin
and other western European IE languages a case of "creolization",
though perhaps a substratum played a role.
> But the development of the "weird features" of Insular
> Celtic is puzzling and there is no evidence anything similar
> happening in related continental languages.
Indeed not.
> [...]
>
> > Pictish is still a mystery. Some people consider it
> > non-Indo-European;
> > others say it was just an aberrant British Celtic
> > language, perhaps one
> > with many loanwords from a non-IE substratum.
>
> All true, indeed. Furthermore, it is not certain that when
> the ancients referred to 'Picti' they always meant the same
> people. The world merely means "painted people"! Some
> scholars hold that those anciently called 'Picti' were both
> a pre-IE people and one (or more) later Brittonic people(s).
Sure. And we know how little the Romans cared about ethnic and
linguistic affinities between "barbarian" tribes. *Anybody*
living north of Hadrian's Wall, wearing face paint and resisting
the Roman attempts at dominating northern Britain was a "Pict"
to them, no matter what kind of language he spoke. Hence, it
doesn't really make sense to speak of a "Pictish language".
There perhaps were several - some Celtic, some not.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
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January 2001, Week 4 January 2001, Week 3 January 2001, Week 2 January 2001, Week 1 December 2000, Week 5 December 2000, Week 4 December 2000, Week 3 December 2000, Week 2 December 2000, Week 1 November 2000, Week 5 November 2000, Week 4 November 2000, Week 3 November 2000, Week 2 November 2000, Week 1 October 2000, Week 5 October 2000, Week 4 October 2000, Week 3 October 2000, Week 2 October 2000, Week 1 September 2000, Week 5 September 2000, Week 4 September 2000, Week 3 September 2000, Week 2 September 2000, Week 1 August 2000, Week 5 August 2000, Week 4 August 2000, Week 3 August 2000, Week 2 August 2000, Week 1 July 2000, Week 5 July 2000, Week 4 July 2000, Week 3 July 2000, Week 2 July 2000, Week 1 June 2000, Week 5 June 2000, Week 4 June 2000, Week 3 June 2000, Week 2 June 2000, Week 1 May 2000, Week 5 May 2000, Week 4 May 2000, Week 3 May 2000, Week 2 May 2000, Week 1 April 2000, Week 5 April 2000, Week 4 April 2000, Week 3 April 2000, Week 2 April 2000, Week 1 March 2000, Week 5 March 2000, Week 4 March 2000, Week 3 March 2000, Week 2 March 2000, Week 1 February 2000, Week 5 February 2000, Week 4 February 2000, Week 3 February 2000, Week 2 February 2000, Week 1 January 2000, Week 5 January 2000, Week 4 January 2000, Week 3 January 2000, Week 2 January 2000, Week 1 December 1999, Week 5 December 1999, Week 4 December 1999, Week 3 December 1999, Week 2 December 1999, Week 1 November 1999, Week 5 November 1999, Week 4 November 1999, Week 3 November 1999, Week 2 November 1999, Week 1 October 1999, Week 5 October 1999, Week 4 October 1999, Week 3 October 1999, Week 2 October 1999, Week 1 September 1999, Week 5 September 1999, Week 4 September 1999, Week 3 September 1999, Week 2 September 1999, Week 1 August 1999, Week 5 August 1999, Week 4 August 1999, Week 3 August 1999, Week 2 August 1999, Week 1 July 1999, Week 5 July 1999, Week 4 July 1999, Week 3 July 1999, Week 2 July 1999, Week 1 June 1999, Week 5 June 1999, Week 4 June 1999, Week 3 June 1999, Week 2 June 1999, Week 1 May 1999, Week 5 May 1999, Week 4 May 1999, Week 3 May 1999, Week 2 May 1999, Week 1 April 1999, Week 5 April 1999, Week 4 April 1999, Week 3 April 1999, Week 2 April 1999, Week 1 March 1999, Week 5 March 1999, Week 4 March 1999, Week 3 March 1999, Week 2 March 1999, Week 1 February 1999, Week 5 February 1999, Week 4 February 1999, Week 3 February 1999, Week 2 February 1999, Week 1 January 1999, Week 5 January 1999, Week 4 January 1999, Week 3 January 1999, Week 2 January 1999, Week 1 December 1998, Week 5 December 1998, Week 4 December 1998, Week 3 December 1998, Week 2 December 1998, Week 1 November 1998, Week 5 November 1998, Week 4 November 1998, Week 3 November 1998, Week 2 November 1998, Week 1 October 1998, Week 5 October 1998, Week 4 October 1998, Week 3 October 1998, Week 2 October 1998, Week 1 September 1998, Week 5 September 1998, Week 4 September 1998, Week 3
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