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CONLANG  July 2010, Week 4

CONLANG July 2010, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Etruscan (was: Bible-era language decoded by computer)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:28:05 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (189 lines)

Hallo!

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 09:23:35 +0100, R A Brown wrote:

>  Lars Finsen wrote:
>  [...]
>  >  I do not believe in isolates, simply because there is no
>  >  way any language, except in the very first stages of the
>  >  origin of the phenomenon of language itself, could have
>  >  arisen anywhere with no predecessors or relatives of any
>  >  kind.
>
>  ?? But I've never understood _isolate_ to mean that.  Of
>  course Basque, for example, will have had a history and
>  other related languages will have been spoken.  But that was
>  long ago - way, way before any written records existed - and
>  we have [at the moment] no way of recovering this.  Now
>  Basque remains an _island_ (that, after all, is what an
>  isolate means) surrounded by a 'sea' of Indo-European
>  languages.  Although many theories (some extremely whacky)
>  have been proposed as to possible connexions with Basque, so
>  far have none have found general acceptance.
>
>  The position is, as far as one can tell, similar with
>  Etruscan: a language of non-IE origin 'isolated' within a
>  sea of neighboring IE languages.

Indeed.  A language isolate is *not* a language that never had
any relatives; it is a language for which no relatives are
*known*.  It may always turn out that some other language later
turns out to be related to it, in which case it loses its isolate
status.

>  [snip]
>  >
>  >   From what I have seen of Etruscan I would guess a
>  >  probability of around 15-30% for any close relation to
>  >  IE, though I'm no expert at all.
>
>  I put 'isolated' in quotes above since, although some
>  communities do consciously cut themselves off from outside
>  contact, this was not so of the Etruscans. As their non-IE
>  language developed they are very likely to have picked up
>  lexical items and, maybe, other features from the
>  IE-speaking neighbors.

Certainly.  AFAIK, the loanwords from Greek and various Italic
languages found in Etruscan number in the dozens, if not in the
hundreds.  The language never was isolated from its neigbours
but interacted with them.  It borrowed words from other languages,
and also lent words to others; there are a handful of Etruscan
loans (some ultimately coming from Greek) in Latin, for instance;
some have even become internationalisms (such as _person_, which
is from Etr._phersu_ 'mask; role (in theatre)').

>  Such things are not exactly unknown. An obvious example are
>  the Nguni languages of southern Africa.  No one doubts that
>  they are Bantu languages; yet by long contact with Khoisian
>  languages they have not only borrowed lexical items but have
>  also developed a whole system of click consonants.

Contact-induced change is commonplace.  Some scholars even think
that most language change was contact-induced, but that overstates
the matter.  Languages with little contact to other languages also
undergo change, even if they indeed tend to be more conservative
than languages in close contact with others.

>  Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
>  [snip]
>   >
>   >  The Indo-European languages of Anatolia are the least
>   >  well understood members of the family, but we understand
>   >  them well enough to tell that Etruscan is not one of
>   >  them, if that is what you are hinting at.
>
>  Yep - in view of the ancient tradition that the Etruscans
>  came from Lydia in Asia Minor, that was the first place that
>  scholars looked for evidence of linguistic relationships. No
>  such connexions have been identified that win any general
>  acceptance.

Right.  We don't really know whether the Etruscans came from Asia Minor
or not.  The ancints said so, but they aren't always reliable.  The
Lemnos stele is better evidence, but even that could have been an
interloper.  I don't know what to say about the "Raetic" inscriptions
in northern Italy, but AFAIK they are so fragmentary that nobody can
really say whether they have anything to do with Etruscan or not.
I have seen other interpretations as well.

>   >  When I said
>   >  that I discarded the idea of a relationship between
>   >  Indo-European and Etruscan, I didn't mean that the
>   >  languages are in my opinion utterly unrelated; I just
>   >  meant that *as for now*, the evidence is *not sufficient*
>   >  to posit a *particularly close relationship* between IE
>   >  and Etruscan.  I consider it very likely that the closest
>   >  living kin of Indo-European is Uralic, and Etruscan
>   >  doesn't seem to be closer than that.
>
>  Yep - we're probably going back into 'nostratic' territory
>  and that's a whole different can of worms   ;)
>
>  I think these theories are valuable in that they get people
>  thinking and looking more closely at evidence, as long as we
>  remember these are theories. Since ....

Indeed.  Few historical linguists would say that something like
Nostratic, Eurasiatic or Indo-Uralic were impossible the way a
perpetual motion machine was, but most are not yet convinced by
the evidence adduced so far.

>   >>  Anyhow, science build models and make progress dealing
>   >>  with realities based on probabilities and informed
>   >>  guesses as well, not just hard evidence.
>   >
>   >  Sure.  Science will progress, and new linguistic
>   >  relationships are being established.
>
>  Of course - no one, as far as I know, has denied this.  Work
>  goes on patiently with Etruscan and our knowledge gradually
>  increases.  The same with other 'isolates' (in the sense
>  that I understand the word). But the point I was making is
>  that in the case of Ugaritic the cognates languages are well
>  known and well-attested.  The computer program had a whole
>  body of sound data to make comparisons with.  In the case of
>  Etruscan we simply do not know what languages it is more or
>  less related to.

Exactly.  It is well-known that Ugaritic is a West Semitic
language closely related to Phoenician, Hebrew and Aramaic.
Etruscan, on the other hand is what is commonly termed an
"isolate", i.e., a language whose external relationships are
not yet known.

>  [...]
>
>  I think the case of sign languages is not exactly
>  comparable. It is all too easy to see how deaf communities
>  could become isolated from other similar groups and have to
>  begin again.

I know virtually nothing about the history of sign languages, but
couldn't it be possible that there is much undocumented and
unexplored history involved, and some sign languages are older
than we think?  And isn't it conceivable that some sign languages
evolved from finger-spelled spoken languages?  (However, I *am*
aware that the major sign languages of Europe are structurally
very different from the major spoken languages of Europe.)

>        But I find it more difficult to imagine a
>  situation in which a group of hearing people could find
>  themselves together without any previous speech.  I suppose
>  it is possible that on occasion feral children with no human
>  speech did meet up and then evolve some spoken communication
>  from scratch, so to speak. But will this have happened often?

Probably not.  We can't be sure that language wasn't developed
more than once, but many kinds of human-usable languages are
conceivable and yet not found in "the wild".  If language was
"invented" more than once, one would expect that some languages
use whistling, or melodies or whatever, rather than consonants
and vowels - but apart from some secondary encodings of ordinary
spoken language (such as El Silbo de Gomera), none have been
discovered so far.

>   >
>   >  A similar thing goes on with the evolution of pidgins to
>   >  creoles (for example, in Hawaii).
>
>  Ah, now that's a whole different matter.  I think it very
>  likely that as communities drifted apart and their language
>  changed and evolved beyond recognition, there would be many
>  occasions of groups with languages which were no longer
>  mutually intelligible forming pidgins and creolization
>  taking place. It must, I think, have happened time and time
>  again ever since the first speaking hominids set out from
>  Africa - how many millennia ago?

Sure.  In my opinion, the exceptionality of pidgins and creoles
is overrated anyway.  Isn't it just an extreme case of imperfect
learning combined with interference between differently-structured
languages?  The phenomenon may be related to substratum-induced
restructuring of languages (as some scholars assume to have happened
with Insular Celtic).

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html

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September 2011, Week 4
September 2011, Week 3
September 2011, Week 2
September 2011, Week 1
August 2011, Week 5
August 2011, Week 4
August 2011, Week 3
August 2011, Week 2
August 2011, Week 1
July 2011, Week 5
July 2011, Week 4
July 2011, Week 3
July 2011, Week 2
July 2011, Week 1
June 2011, Week 5
June 2011, Week 4
June 2011, Week 3
June 2011, Week 2
June 2011, Week 1
May 2011, Week 5
May 2011, Week 4
May 2011, Week 3
May 2011, Week 2
May 2011, Week 1
April 2011, Week 5
April 2011, Week 4
April 2011, Week 3
April 2011, Week 2
April 2011, Week 1
March 2011, Week 5
March 2011, Week 4
March 2011, Week 3
March 2011, Week 2
March 2011, Week 1
February 2011, Week 4
February 2011, Week 3
February 2011, Week 2
February 2011, Week 1
January 2011, Week 5
January 2011, Week 4
January 2011, Week 3
January 2011, Week 2
January 2011, Week 1
December 2010, Week 5
December 2010, Week 4
December 2010, Week 3
December 2010, Week 2
December 2010, Week 1
November 2010, Week 5
November 2010, Week 4
November 2010, Week 3
November 2010, Week 2
November 2010, Week 1
October 2010, Week 5
October 2010, Week 4
October 2010, Week 3
October 2010, Week 2
October 2010, Week 1
September 2010, Week 5
September 2010, Week 4
September 2010, Week 3
September 2010, Week 2
September 2010, Week 1
August 2010, Week 5
August 2010, Week 4
August 2010, Week 3
August 2010, Week 2
August 2010, Week 1
July 2010, Week 5
July 2010, Week 4
July 2010, Week 3
July 2010, Week 2
July 2010, Week 1
June 2010, Week 5
June 2010, Week 4
June 2010, Week 3
June 2010, Week 2
June 2010, Week 1
May 2010, Week 5
May 2010, Week 4
May 2010, Week 3
May 2010, Week 2
May 2010, Week 1
April 2010, Week 5
April 2010, Week 4
April 2010, Week 3
April 2010, Week 2
April 2010, Week 1
March 2010, Week 5
March 2010, Week 4
March 2010, Week 3
March 2010, Week 2
March 2010, Week 1
February 2010, Week 4
February 2010, Week 3
February 2010, Week 2
February 2010, Week 1
January 2010, Week 5
January 2010, Week 4
January 2010, Week 3
January 2010, Week 2
January 2010, Week 1
December 2009, Week 5
December 2009, Week 4
December 2009, Week 3
December 2009, Week 2
December 2009, Week 1
November 2009, Week 5
November 2009, Week 4
November 2009, Week 3
November 2009, Week 2
November 2009, Week 1
October 2009, Week 5
October 2009, Week 4
October 2009, Week 3
October 2009, Week 2
October 2009, Week 1
September 2009, Week 5
September 2009, Week 4
September 2009, Week 3
September 2009, Week 2
September 2009, Week 1
August 2009, Week 5
August 2009, Week 4
August 2009, Week 3
August 2009, Week 2
August 2009, Week 1
July 2009, Week 5
July 2009, Week 4
July 2009, Week 3
July 2009, Week 2
July 2009, Week 1
June 2009, Week 5
June 2009, Week 4
June 2009, Week 3
June 2009, Week 2
June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 5
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
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November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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September 2000, Week 1
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June 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
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October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
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August 1999, Week 3
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August 1999, Week 1
July 1999, Week 5
July 1999, Week 4
July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
May 1999, Week 4
May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 3
April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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