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CONLANG  June 2011, Week 2

CONLANG June 2011, Week 2

Subject:

Re: TAKE Romanization?

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 16:49:00 +0200

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (134 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Monday 13 June 2011 09:09:10, R A Brown wrote:

> I know I'm answering myself - but what choice have I!
> 
> On 10/06/2011 19:11, R A Brown wrote:
> > The current thread on Livagian romanization has made me
> > consider whether 'twould be better to romanize TAKE. I
> > sometimes get the impression that some dismiss the
> > language because it is written in Greek letters.
> 
> The fact that I've had only one email - and that as a
> _private_ response - rather suggests that writing TAKE in
> Greek letters ain't a problem. There's only 24 letters to
> get to know anyway    ;)

Indeed.  The Greek alphabet is easy to learn, and should not
be a hindrance against exploring the language.  Those people
who refuse to deal with the Greek alphabet probably would
refuse to deal with your language as well, even if it was
presented in Latin script.
 
> On the other hand, no philhellenists protested against the
> notion     :(
> 
> However, the more I think about it, the more I feel that if
> I use Roman characters the reaction is likely to be that
> TAKE isn't really _Greek_ without inflexions.

Right.  Of course, Greek could be romanized just like any
language, but most people probably agree with me when I feel
that the Greek alphabet belongs to Greek, and TAKE thus
*should* be written in Greek letters.
 
> [snip]
> 
> > But it is not till the 2nd cent CE that we find them
> > being used sporadically on papyruses. It was not until
> > the Byzantine period that the system we still use in
> > printing ancient Greek became standardized. In other
> > words, the polytonic orthography that I'm saddling TAKE
> > with just ain't ancient! It's a Byzantine invention.
> 
> Yes, and the Byzantines seemed to like complicated systems.
> 
> If the aim of revising TAKE is to make it more obviously
> _ancient_ Greek without inflexions, then why am I saddling
> it with a Byzantine complication, e.g. rules when to use a
> circumflex or an acute accent.

Well, a scholar who would strip Greek of its inflections in
order to make it more convenient to use as an auxlang, wouldn't
he also discard the complicated accent signs, especially if the
ancient Greeks did not actually use them?  (BTW, Peano did not
mark vowel length in Latino sine flexione.)
 
> > It occurred to me that if I remove all the darned
> > diacritics, I could go the whole hog and use Roman
> > letters,
> 
> I could - but then would it be ancient Greek without inflexions?
> 
> I recall that when I learnt ancient Greek at school way back
> in the 1950s, we ignored the accents (we learnt them later
> in the 6th form as basically an academic exercise), though
> we did use the breathings because they do affect the
> pronunciation, i.e. /h/ or no /h/.
> 
> TAKE version #1 had the modern Greek monotonic accentuation
> introduce in 1982. The present revision is using the
> polytonic accentuation which had its beginnings in the
> Hellenistic period but was not formalized until the
> Byzantine period.  This, I now think, runs counter to the
> notion of _simplifying_ ancient Greek.

It does.  It seems nonsensical to retain that complexity
when one goes forth and eliminates the inflections.
 
> In modern Greek the accent denotes stress - but the
> polytonic system was developed to show _pitch_ accent. We
> only imperfectly know the pitch accent of ancient Greek and
> nothing about stress (though there are disputed theories
> about that).
> 
> At school, we used the horrible "Henninian" system, i.e.
> stress it as though it were Latin!

Ouch!  As much as I like the Latin stress system (I use it
in Old Albic, though there it is a pitch rather than stress
accent) - Greek just ain't Latin!  It is of course legitimate
to use such an accentuation in a Greek-derived conlang, but
stressing Ancient Greek that way is simply WRONG.

>       I shall definitely not
> saddle TAKE with that one!

Especially as it depends on vowel length, which you are
apparently going to do away with.  A consistent initial,
penultimate or final syllable accent is also easier than the
Latin system.

>       There is no evidence whatever
> that ancient Greek used any such system and it needs a
> knowledge of long & short vowels, which would be an
> unwelcome complication to TAKE.
> 
> Therefore I am proposing:
> - to keep the Greek letters as there is obviously no demand
> to do otherwise;

A good choice.

> - to drop the Byzantine-based polytonic accentuation as this
> adds an unnecessary complication and *was unknown in
> classical Greek*;

Also a good idea.

> - to retain the rough breathing to show initial /h/ (unless
> I am persuaded to make TAKE psilotic    :)

I would do so, too.

> - to pronounce words with even stress à la française with
> _slight_ emphasis on the last.

That works well, I think.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1

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May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
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April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
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February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
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December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
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October 2008, Week 5
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June 2008, Week 5
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May 2008, Week 5
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May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
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April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
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February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
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January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
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November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
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October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
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March 2007, Week 5
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January 2007, Week 5
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December 2006, Week 5
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December 2006, Week 3
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December 2006, Week 1
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June 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 5
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April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
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March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 5
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January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
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September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
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July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
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May 2005, Week 3
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May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
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February 2005, Week 1
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January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
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October 2004, Week 5
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October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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September 2004, Week 3
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
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August 2004, Week 3
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August 2004, Week 1
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July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 1
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 1
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April 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 3
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
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September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
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April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
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January 2000, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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