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Hallo conlangers!
On Friday 30 September 2011 10:14:04, "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" wrote:
> On 29 September 2011 23:06, Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> [...]
> > Yes, this kind of Elves have been criticized often, and
> > justifiably so. Tolkien IMHO portrayed them well; most
> > later ones are just blatant rip-offs, sometimes even
> > dropped like BDOs into worlds where they simply don't fit.
>
> Yes indeed. Elves in most modern fantasy books can be rather bland, but
> Tolkien's Elves were anything but. If you read the Silmarillion, you'll see
> that Tolkien's Elves are just as fallible as Humans are, and in many cases
> the consequences of their actions are anything but positive. In the
> Silmarillion there are plenty of instances of Elves being jealous, angry,
> arrogant, treacherous, horny (yes!) and even downright evil. Thanks to
> their long lives, they do gather more *knowledge* than Humans, but only a
> few actually gain any *wisdom*. Those are the ones who tend to survive the
> others, which is why by the time of the Lord of the Rings, the only elves
> still living in Middle-Earth seem to be such Fountains of Wisdom. But they
> gained it the hard way. I certainly thought of the characters of Elrond
> and Galadriel differently once I learned how their lives had been before
> that time.
>
> And if anything, Tolkien's Elves formed different nations, spoke different
> (if related) languages, and even regularly massacred each other. A far cry
> from the monolithic "wisdom cultures" they are given in lesser works.
Yes, the Elves in _The Silmarillion_ are morally highly ambiguous,
in no way better than humans. In fact, when they do wrong, they
do it in a thorough and spectacular manner. Feanor arguably
caused about as much damage and grief as Sauron; only Morgoth
himself has a darker record. The wisdom of Elrond and Galadriel
is hard won after a long life through utter catastrophe, much of
which was caused by Elves rather than by fallen angels. They
have seen first-hand what kind of havoc their own kind could
wreak upon the world, and it is for this bitter experience that
they restrain their powers and advice others to do so as well.
Most post-Tolkien Elves are based on their portrayal in _The Lord
of the Rings_, and ignore the richer and more ambiguous testimony
of _The Silmarillion_.
> > Yes, I have noticed this bogosity about many "Elvish" languages
> > I have seen. Most of them are just hackwork coarsely imitative
> > of Quenya and Sindarin (which are excellently elaborated
> > conlangs, even if they aren't really more subtle and refined
> > than most human languages),
>
> And indeed, they are not treated as such in Tolkien's material. On the
> contrary, his works feature enough Humans who speak Elven languages
> (usually Sindarin), some even good enough to produce poetry that the Elves
> themselves appreciate!
Yes. By the time of _The Lord of the Rings_, Sindarin was
probably spoken by more mortal Men than Elves. And we know
that the _Narn i-Chîn Húrin_, which was composed by a Man,
was considered one of the finest works in Sindarin by the
scholars of the Eldar!
> If anything, the Elven languages are presented as
> being *easy to learn* by Humans, because they are somehow more directly
> connected to the world, i.e. (slightly) less arbitrary than Human
> languages (probably because the Elves are strongly rooted in Ea, and never
> leave the world even when slain, whereas Humans are just staying there for
> a short time, and their souls are not bound to the world).
Tolkien strove for beauty and "truthfulness" in his Quendian
languages; he chose words after long contemplation of what
were the "true" names of things. Indeed, Primitive Quendian
is sort of the "Adamic Tongue" of Middle-earth, being the
root of not just the Elvish languages, but also, though less
obviously due to the more changeful nature of Men and their
languages, of the languages of Mankind as well - or so I
understood what he said about the languages of Middle-earth
(though Adûnaic does not look much like a descendant of PQ).
> [...]
> > This is pretty much what I assume, too, except that I place
> > the "real Elves" on the British Isles (the Irish say the Elves
> > were on the Isles before the Irish themselves, the Germanic
> > tradition has them in a land beyond the sea), where they had
> > a sophisticated civilization (also surfacing in Greek myths
> > as Hyperborea and Atlantis) and traded with the people on the
> > shores of the Continent. Of course, these "real Elves" were
> > 100% human, and their language an ordinary human language
> > (Old Albic is my attempt at re-creating this language).
>
> I might decide to call the Maggel speakers "Elves" after all (at least in
> the language). So far, I called them "Pictics" to give them a possible
> relationship with the Picts, but that's only one of the possible origin of
> those people.
Very little is known about the language of the Picts; most
scholars now think that, in the later part of their history
at least, they spoke a Brythonic language related to Welsh,
Cornish and Breton, though probably with a strong influence
from some lost non-IE language. (Of course, it is often
assumed that the typological aberrancy of the Insular Celtic
languages as a whole is due to a non-Indo-European substratum
influence, but that notion is controversial.)
> I kind of like the idea that they would be called Elves,
> since Maggel is supposed to be nearly impossible to learn, and its
> speakers are very arrogant about being able to speak that language. The
> fact that the language itself has hints of them being cannibals makes it
> only more appropriate :P .
Then they are quite different from my Elves ;) I admit it
right out that my Elves are meant, at least in their classic
era, to reflect my feelings about the human condition. They
are a fairly enlightened culture, though this too is hard won.
There was much internal strife before the Commonwealth of the
Elves was established (the Brazen Law, the constitution of
the Commonwealth, begins with the words 'To end war and tyranny
among the Elves...'), there are failings during the classical
era (above all, the Elves tend to behave arrogantly and
condescendingly towards other, "less enlightened" nations), and
the fall of the Commonwealth is to a very large part caused by
internal strife and the attempt of a particular bright-minded
(but not equally wise) Elf to gain absolute power with the help
of foreign allies.
On Friday 30 September 2011 13:04:14, Wesley Parish wrote:
> I think a major part of the problem with "Elves", is that people have
> picked up on Tolkien
And only _The Lord of the Rings_. The picture presented in
_The Silmarillion_ is, as discussed above, much more ambiguous.
> ironing out their folk-tale and mythological
> aspects in order to create a race of (almost) pure Catholics.
Yes. Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and he projected many
Catholic ideals into his Elves - curiously, because Elves are
of course originally a *pagan* concept.
> They - and the Dwarfs - in Norse myth, were part of the spirits
> associated with ancestors and the world of the dead - at least that
> is my reading of that story in the Grimm Bros collection where a
> queen offers to sacrifice all her sons to the King of the Dwarfs in
> return for a daughter.
The equation of Elves with ancestor spirits is common in
mythographic literature. Hmm, maybe. But in Anglo-Saxon
England at least, Elves were conceived of as a kind of *people*,
as opposed to many other kinds of mythological creatures. See
Alaric Hall, _Elves in Anglo-Saxon England_. While Hall does
not reach the conclusion that actual Elves, of whichever kind,
lived in Anglo-Saxon England, it is very well possible that a
remainder of the "real Elves" still led a Gypsy-like life
among the Anglo-Saxons, perhaps as itinerant showmen, and with
magical powers widely attributed to them.
> Any use of Elves or Dwarfs or similar eldritch beings in fiction
> without including that aspect, is already half-way on the way to "
> aliens as people in funny suits" that so bedevils Star Trek.
This is indeed a quite valid comparison. Most fantasy races,
as well as most science fiction aliens, are based on stereotypes,
are "humans +X -Y". Well, it is difficult to tell stories about
beings that are *not human*.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
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2006, Week 1 June 2006, Week 5 June 2006, Week 4 June 2006, Week 3 June 2006, Week 2 June 2006, Week 1 May 2006, Week 5 May 2006, Week 4 May 2006, Week 3 May 2006, Week 2 May 2006, Week 1 April 2006, Week 5 April 2006, Week 4 April 2006, Week 3 April 2006, Week 2 April 2006, Week 1 March 2006, Week 5 March 2006, Week 4 March 2006, Week 3 March 2006, Week 2 March 2006, Week 1 February 2006, Week 4 February 2006, Week 3 February 2006, Week 2 February 2006, Week 1 January 2006, Week 5 January 2006, Week 4 January 2006, Week 3 January 2006, Week 2 January 2006, Week 1 December 2005, Week 5 December 2005, Week 4 December 2005, Week 3 December 2005, Week 2 December 2005, Week 1 November 2005, Week 5 November 2005, Week 4 November 2005, Week 3 November 2005, Week 2 November 2005, Week 1 October 2005, Week 5 October 2005, Week 4 October 2005, Week 3 October 2005, Week 2 October 2005, Week 1 September 2005, Week 5 September 2005, Week 4 September 2005, Week 3 September 2005, Week 2 September 2005, Week 1 August 2005, Week 5 August 2005, Week 4 August 2005, Week 3 August 2005, Week 2 August 2005, Week 1 July 2005, Week 5 July 2005, Week 4 July 2005, Week 3 July 2005, Week 2 July 2005, Week 1 June 2005, Week 5 June 2005, Week 4 June 2005, Week 3 June 2005, Week 2 June 2005, Week 1 May 2005, Week 5 May 2005, Week 4 May 2005, Week 3 May 2005, Week 2 May 2005, Week 1 April 2005, Week 5 April 2005, Week 4 April 2005, Week 3 April 2005, Week 2 April 2005, Week 1 March 2005, Week 5 March 2005, Week 4 March 2005, Week 3 March 2005, Week 2 March 2005, Week 1 February 2005, Week 4 February 2005, Week 3 February 2005, Week 2 February 2005, Week 1 January 2005, Week 5 January 2005, Week 4 January 2005, Week 3 January 2005, Week 2 January 2005, Week 1 December 2004, Week 5 December 2004, Week 4 December 2004, Week 3 December 2004, Week 2 December 2004, Week 1 November 2004, Week 5 November 2004, Week 4 November 2004, Week 3 November 2004, Week 2 November 2004, Week 1 October 2004, Week 5 October 2004, Week 4 October 2004, Week 3 October 2004, Week 2 October 2004, Week 1 September 2004, Week 5 September 2004, Week 4 September 2004, Week 3 September 2004, Week 2 September 2004, Week 1 August 2004, Week 5 August 2004, Week 4 August 2004, Week 3 August 2004, Week 2 August 2004, Week 1 July 2004, Week 5 July 2004, Week 4 July 2004, Week 3 July 2004, Week 2 July 2004, Week 1 June 2004, Week 5 June 2004, Week 4 June 2004, Week 3 June 2004, Week 2 June 2004, Week 1 May 2004, Week 5 May 2004, Week 4 May 2004, Week 3 May 2004, Week 2 May 2004, Week 1 April 2004, Week 5 April 2004, Week 4 April 2004, Week 3 April 2004, Week 2 April 2004, Week 1 March 2004, Week 5 March 2004, Week 4 March 2004, Week 3 March 2004, Week 2 March 2004, Week 1 February 2004, Week 5 February 2004, Week 4 February 2004, Week 3 February 2004, Week 2 February 2004, Week 1 January 2004, Week 5 January 2004, Week 4 January 2004, Week 3 January 2004, Week 2 January 2004, Week 1 December 2003, Week 5 December 2003, Week 4 December 2003, Week 3 December 2003, Week 2 December 2003, Week 1 November 2003, Week 5 November 2003, Week 4 November 2003, Week 3 November 2003, Week 2 November 2003, Week 1 October 2003, Week 5 October 2003, Week 4 October 2003, Week 3 October 2003, Week 2 October 2003, Week 1 September 2003, Week 5 September 2003, Week 4 September 2003, Week 3 September 2003, Week 2 September 2003, Week 1 August 2003, Week 5 August 2003, Week 4 August 2003, Week 3 August 2003, Week 2 August 2003, Week 1 July 2003, Week 5 July 2003, Week 4 July 2003, Week 3 July 2003, Week 2 July 2003, Week 1 June 2003, Week 5 June 2003, Week 4 June 2003, Week 3 June 2003, Week 2 June 2003, Week 1 May 2003, Week 5 May 2003, Week 4 May 2003, Week 3 May 2003, Week 2 May 2003, Week 1 April 2003, Week 5 April 2003, Week 4 April 2003, Week 3 April 2003, Week 2 April 2003, Week 1 March 2003, Week 5 March 2003, Week 4 March 2003, Week 3 March 2003, Week 2 March 2003, Week 1 February 2003, Week 4 February 2003, Week 3 February 2003, Week 2 February 2003, Week 1 January 2003, Week 5 January 2003, Week 4 January 2003, Week 3 January 2003, Week 2 January 2003, Week 1 December 2002, Week 5 December 2002, Week 4 December 2002, Week 3 December 2002, Week 2 December 2002, Week 1 November 2002, Week 5 November 2002, Week 4 November 2002, Week 3 November 2002, Week 2 November 2002, Week 1 October 2002, Week 5 October 2002, Week 4 October 2002, Week 3 October 2002, Week 2 October 2002, Week 1 September 2002, Week 5 September 2002, Week 4 September 2002, Week 3 September 2002, Week 2 September 2002, Week 1 August 2002, Week 5 August 2002, Week 4 August 2002, Week 3 August 2002, Week 2 August 2002, Week 1 July 2002, Week 5 July 2002, Week 4 July 2002, Week 3 July 2002, Week 2 July 2002, Week 1 June 2002, Week 5 June 2002, Week 4 June 2002, Week 3 June 2002, Week 2 June 2002, Week 1 May 2002, Week 5 May 2002, Week 4 May 2002, Week 3 May 2002, Week 2 May 2002, Week 1 April 2002, Week 5 April 2002, Week 4 April 2002, Week 3 April 2002, Week 2 April 2002, Week 1 March 2002, Week 5 March 2002, Week 4 March 2002, Week 3 March 2002, Week 2 March 2002, Week 1 February 2002, Week 4 February 2002, Week 3 February 2002, Week 2 February 2002, Week 1 January 2002, Week 5 January 2002, Week 4 January 2002, Week 3 January 2002, Week 2 January 2002, Week 1 December 2001, Week 5 December 2001, Week 4 December 2001, Week 3 December 2001, Week 2 December 2001, Week 1 November 2001, Week 5 November 2001, Week 4 November 2001, Week 3 November 2001, Week 2 November 2001, Week 1 October 2001, Week 5 October 2001, Week 4 October 2001, Week 3 October 2001, Week 2 October 2001, Week 1 September 2001, Week 5 September 2001, Week 4 September 2001, Week 3 September 2001, Week 2 September 2001, Week 1 August 2001, Week 5 August 2001, Week 4 August 2001, Week 3 August 2001, Week 2 August 2001, Week 1 July 2001, Week 5 July 2001, Week 4 July 2001, Week 3 July 2001, Week 2 July 2001, Week 1 June 2001, Week 5 June 2001, Week 4 June 2001, Week 3 June 2001, Week 2 June 2001, Week 1 May 2001, Week 5 May 2001, Week 4 May 2001, Week 3 May 2001, Week 2 May 2001, Week 1 April 2001, Week 5 April 2001, Week 4 April 2001, Week 3 April 2001, Week 2 April 2001, Week 1 March 2001, Week 5 March 2001, Week 4 March 2001, Week 3 March 2001, Week 2 March 2001, Week 1 February 2001, Week 4 February 2001, Week 3 February 2001, Week 2 February 2001, Week 1 January 2001, Week 5 January 2001, Week 4 January 2001, Week 3 January 2001, Week 2 January 2001, Week 1 December 2000, Week 5 December 2000, Week 4 December 2000, Week 3 December 2000, Week 2 December 2000, Week 1 November 2000, Week 5 November 2000, Week 4 November 2000, Week 3 November 2000, Week 2 November 2000, Week 1 October 2000, Week 5 October 2000, Week 4 October 2000, Week 3 October 2000, Week 2 October 2000, Week 1 September 2000, Week 5 September 2000, Week 4 September 2000, Week 3 September 2000, Week 2 September 2000, Week 1 August 2000, Week 5 August 2000, Week 4 August 2000, Week 3 August 2000, Week 2 August 2000, Week 1 July 2000, Week 5 July 2000, Week 4 July 2000, Week 3 July 2000, Week 2 July 2000, Week 1 June 2000, Week 5 June 2000, Week 4 June 2000, Week 3 June 2000, Week 2 June 2000, Week 1 May 2000, Week 5 May 2000, Week 4 May 2000, Week 3 May 2000, Week 2 May 2000, Week 1 April 2000, Week 5 April 2000, Week 4 April 2000, Week 3 April 2000, Week 2 April 2000, Week 1 March 2000, Week 5 March 2000, Week 4 March 2000, Week 3 March 2000, Week 2 March 2000, Week 1 February 2000, Week 5 February 2000, Week 4 February 2000, Week 3 February 2000, Week 2 February 2000, Week 1 January 2000, Week 5 January 2000, Week 4 January 2000, Week 3 January 2000, Week 2 January 2000, Week 1 December 1999, Week 5 December 1999, Week 4 December 1999, Week 3 December 1999, Week 2 December 1999, Week 1 November 1999, Week 5 November 1999, Week 4 November 1999, Week 3 November 1999, Week 2 November 1999, Week 1 October 1999, Week 5 October 1999, Week 4 October 1999, Week 3 October 1999, Week 2 October 1999, Week 1 September 1999, Week 5 September 1999, Week 4 September 1999, Week 3 September 1999, Week 2 September 1999, Week 1 August 1999, Week 5 August 1999, Week 4 August 1999, Week 3 August 1999, Week 2 August 1999, Week 1 July 1999, Week 5 July 1999, Week 4 July 1999, Week 3 July 1999, Week 2 July 1999, Week 1 June 1999, Week 5 June 1999, Week 4 June 1999, Week 3 June 1999, Week 2 June 1999, Week 1 May 1999, Week 5 May 1999, Week 4 May 1999, Week 3 May 1999, Week 2 May 1999, Week 1 April 1999, Week 5 April 1999, Week 4 April 1999, Week 3 April 1999, Week 2 April 1999, Week 1 March 1999, Week 5 March 1999, Week 4 March 1999, Week 3 March 1999, Week 2 March 1999, Week 1 February 1999, Week 5 February 1999, Week 4 February 1999, Week 3 February 1999, Week 2 February 1999, Week 1 January 1999, Week 5 January 1999, Week 4 January 1999, Week 3 January 1999, Week 2 January 1999, Week 1 December 1998, Week 5 December 1998, Week 4 December 1998, Week 3 December 1998, Week 2 December 1998, Week 1 November 1998, Week 5 November 1998, Week 4 November 1998, Week 3 November 1998, Week 2 November 1998, Week 1 October 1998, Week 5 October 1998, Week 4 October 1998, Week 3 October 1998, Week 2 October 1998, Week 1 September 1998, Week 5 September 1998, Week 4 September 1998, Week 3
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