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Hallo conlangers!
On Friday 25 November 2011 09:37:43 R A Brown wrote:
> On 24/11/2011 22:24, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> > Hallo!
>
> > On Thu, 24 Nov 2011 20:47:57 +0000 R A Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>
> >> [Okamoto] clearly would not have been interested in
> >> Shwa's gaits.
> >
> > He would not have been interested in Shwa because there
> > are no Shwa typewriters ;) Whether it is featural or not
> > would not have mattered to him at all, I think.
>
> Oh yes it would: "....there is no troublesome need to make
> some pronunciation by combining a consonant with a vowel."
>
> He did not even want the featural aspect of an abugida.
I see. So he did not see a point in representing units
smaller than the syllable in script - hence a syllabary
and not an alphabet or abugida.
> [snip]
>
> > Right. The grapheme/phoneme relation is arbitrary.
> >
> >> The Brx script is a true syllabary. Shwa can never be
> >> a true syllabary because it is featural.
> >
> > If you include the arbitrariness of the grapheme/phoneme
> > relation into the definition of "syllabary", then indeed
> > not. I'd rather consider abugidas a subset of
> > syllabaries,
>
> That seems to me like calling both true alphabets, abjads
> (and often abugidas) "alphabets", as is popularly done.
I have even come across the term "syllabic alphabet" several
times, sometimes referring to abugidas, sometimes to plain old
syllabaries such as the Japanese kana syllabaries!
Of course, in *formal language theory*, the word _alphabet_
is used in a much, much more abstract sense, but that does
not concern us here.
> I
> understand _syllabary_ to denote a writing system where the
> basic symbols is a syllabogram, i.e. the symbol itself, as
> e.g in hiragana, katakana and Linear B (and, presumably,
> Linear A) denotes a whole syllable and cannot be broken down
> into smaller phone*ic units.
Yes. How you classify abugidas is a matter of what one
considers the "basic symbols", but arguably, the syllabograms
are *not* the basic symbols in an abugida - because they can
be broken up into consonant and vowel symbols. In that way,
an abugida is closer to an alphabet than to a "true" syllabary.
> > namely those where the grapheme/phoneme relationship is
> > not arbitrary. All featural syllabaries are abugidas.
>
> If you have syllables denoted by featural symbols then you
> must have an abugida.
Sure.
> ===========================================================
>
> On 25/11/2011 01:18, Garth Wallace wrote:
> [snip]
>
> > Okay, I'm a little confused by this discussion. I was
> > under the impression that an abugida was a writing
> > system that worked like Devanagari and closely related
> > scripts, in which each non-diacritic glyph stands for a
> > consonant followed by the inherent vowel of the script,
> > and different vowels or a lack of a following vowel are
> > marked with diacritics.
>
> But as the word "abugida" is of Ethiopian origin and
> referred to the so-called "Ge'ez alphabet", it seems to me
> rather odd to restrict it just to the writing systems of a
> an Asian subcontinent.
Indeed. The word could not have originated in India, as they
don't have the /? b g d .../ ordering of letters underlying
this at all. They sort the letters by phonological criteria.
Using it in a way that doesn't apply to the Ethiopian script
would be perverse.
> The term was coined by Peter T. Daniels in his 1990 typology
> of writing systems. He used the word abugida to mean a
> system where each unit is based on a consonant letter, and
> vowel notation is obligatory but secondary; it
> contrasts with a syllabary, where letters with shared
> consonants or vowels show no particular resemblance to each
> another, and with an alphabet proper, where independent
> letters are used to denote both consonants and vowels.
>
> > Hangul's not an abugida at all, since it has both
> > consonant and vowel symbols and both are obligatory.
>
> They are also in Ethiopian abugidas :)
Hangul is somewhat different from Ethiopian and the South Asian
abugidas in that it does not consist of a string of consonant
symbols to which vowel diacritics are added; it has consonant
and vowel symbols which are grouped by syllables. The question
whether it is an abugida is one of definition.
> > It's more like an alphabet squished into syllable
> > blocks.
>
> Yep.
Exactly that is Hangul - a featural alphabet squished into
syllable blocks.
> The Indic scripts do differ from the Ethiopian abugida in
> that the basic consonant symbols denote consonant followed
> by inherent /a/, and the symbols for V symbols are, in
> effect, alphabetic. The term _alphasyllabary_ is often
> used to denote the Indic scripts as they share alphabetic
> features with that of a syllabary, in the broadest sense of
> the word.
Right. They function a bit differently from Ethiopian, but
similar enough to classify them as abugidas, as is usually
done.
> > A featural syllabary would be a writing system where
> > there are systematic resemblances between symbols for
> > syllables with certain features in common, yet these
> > symbols cannot be decomposed into distinct obligatory
> > consonant and vowel symbols (which would make it
> > alphabetic).
>
> By your definition, the Ethiopian abugida becomes an alphabet!!
And so do the South Asian scripts, and Hangul anyway.
> > The only writing system I know of that fits is Canadian
> > Aboriginal Syllabics, where the consonant is shown by the
> > shape of the glyph and the vowel by its orientation.
>
> Yes, that's why people like me - and I am certainly not
> alone in this - classify Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics as an
> abugida. :)
Yes, it can be considered an abugida, at least with equal
justification as Hangul.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
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2003, Week 5 July 2003, Week 4 July 2003, Week 3 July 2003, Week 2 July 2003, Week 1 June 2003, Week 5 June 2003, Week 4 June 2003, Week 3 June 2003, Week 2 June 2003, Week 1 May 2003, Week 5 May 2003, Week 4 May 2003, Week 3 May 2003, Week 2 May 2003, Week 1 April 2003, Week 5 April 2003, Week 4 April 2003, Week 3 April 2003, Week 2 April 2003, Week 1 March 2003, Week 5 March 2003, Week 4 March 2003, Week 3 March 2003, Week 2 March 2003, Week 1 February 2003, Week 4 February 2003, Week 3 February 2003, Week 2 February 2003, Week 1 January 2003, Week 5 January 2003, Week 4 January 2003, Week 3 January 2003, Week 2 January 2003, Week 1 December 2002, Week 5 December 2002, Week 4 December 2002, Week 3 December 2002, Week 2 December 2002, Week 1 November 2002, Week 5 November 2002, Week 4 November 2002, Week 3 November 2002, Week 2 November 2002, Week 1 October 2002, Week 5 October 2002, Week 4 October 2002, Week 3 October 2002, Week 2 October 2002, Week 1 September 2002, Week 5 September 2002, Week 4 September 2002, Week 3 September 2002, Week 2 September 2002, Week 1 August 2002, Week 5 August 2002, Week 4 August 2002, Week 3 August 2002, Week 2 August 2002, Week 1 July 2002, Week 5 July 2002, Week 4 July 2002, Week 3 July 2002, Week 2 July 2002, Week 1 June 2002, Week 5 June 2002, Week 4 June 2002, Week 3 June 2002, Week 2 June 2002, Week 1 May 2002, Week 5 May 2002, Week 4 May 2002, Week 3 May 2002, Week 2 May 2002, Week 1 April 2002, Week 5 April 2002, Week 4 April 2002, Week 3 April 2002, Week 2 April 2002, Week 1 March 2002, Week 5 March 2002, Week 4 March 2002, Week 3 March 2002, Week 2 March 2002, Week 1 February 2002, Week 4 February 2002, Week 3 February 2002, Week 2 February 2002, Week 1 January 2002, Week 5 January 2002, Week 4 January 2002, Week 3 January 2002, Week 2 January 2002, Week 1 December 2001, Week 5 December 2001, Week 4 December 2001, Week 3 December 2001, Week 2 December 2001, Week 1 November 2001, Week 5 November 2001, Week 4 November 2001, Week 3 November 2001, Week 2 November 2001, Week 1 October 2001, Week 5 October 2001, Week 4 October 2001, Week 3 October 2001, Week 2 October 2001, Week 1 September 2001, Week 5 September 2001, Week 4 September 2001, Week 3 September 2001, Week 2 September 2001, Week 1 August 2001, Week 5 August 2001, Week 4 August 2001, Week 3 August 2001, Week 2 August 2001, Week 1 July 2001, Week 5 July 2001, Week 4 July 2001, Week 3 July 2001, Week 2 July 2001, Week 1 June 2001, Week 5 June 2001, Week 4 June 2001, Week 3 June 2001, Week 2 June 2001, Week 1 May 2001, Week 5 May 2001, Week 4 May 2001, Week 3 May 2001, Week 2 May 2001, Week 1 April 2001, Week 5 April 2001, Week 4 April 2001, Week 3 April 2001, Week 2 April 2001, Week 1 March 2001, Week 5 March 2001, Week 4 March 2001, Week 3 March 2001, Week 2 March 2001, Week 1 February 2001, Week 4 February 2001, Week 3 February 2001, Week 2 February 2001, Week 1 January 2001, Week 5 January 2001, Week 4 January 2001, Week 3 January 2001, Week 2 January 2001, Week 1 December 2000, Week 5 December 2000, Week 4 December 2000, Week 3 December 2000, Week 2 December 2000, Week 1 November 2000, Week 5 November 2000, Week 4 November 2000, Week 3 November 2000, Week 2 November 2000, Week 1 October 2000, Week 5 October 2000, Week 4 October 2000, Week 3 October 2000, Week 2 October 2000, Week 1 September 2000, Week 5 September 2000, Week 4 September 2000, Week 3 September 2000, Week 2 September 2000, Week 1 August 2000, Week 5 August 2000, Week 4 August 2000, Week 3 August 2000, Week 2 August 2000, Week 1 July 2000, Week 5 July 2000, Week 4 July 2000, Week 3 July 2000, Week 2 July 2000, Week 1 June 2000, Week 5 June 2000, Week 4 June 2000, Week 3 June 2000, Week 2 June 2000, Week 1 May 2000, Week 5 May 2000, Week 4 May 2000, Week 3 May 2000, Week 2 May 2000, Week 1 April 2000, Week 5 April 2000, Week 4 April 2000, Week 3 April 2000, Week 2 April 2000, Week 1 March 2000, Week 5 March 2000, Week 4 March 2000, Week 3 March 2000, Week 2 March 2000, Week 1 February 2000, Week 5 February 2000, Week 4 February 2000, Week 3 February 2000, Week 2 February 2000, Week 1 January 2000, Week 5 January 2000, Week 4 January 2000, Week 3 January 2000, Week 2 January 2000, Week 1 December 1999, Week 5 December 1999, Week 4 December 1999, Week 3 December 1999, Week 2 December 1999, Week 1 November 1999, Week 5 November 1999, Week 4 November 1999, Week 3 November 1999, Week 2 November 1999, Week 1 October 1999, Week 5 October 1999, Week 4 October 1999, Week 3 October 1999, Week 2 October 1999, Week 1 September 1999, Week 5 September 1999, Week 4 September 1999, Week 3 September 1999, Week 2 September 1999, Week 1 August 1999, Week 5 August 1999, Week 4 August 1999, Week 3 August 1999, Week 2 August 1999, Week 1 July 1999, Week 5 July 1999, Week 4 July 1999, Week 3 July 1999, Week 2 July 1999, Week 1 June 1999, Week 5 June 1999, Week 4 June 1999, Week 3 June 1999, Week 2 June 1999, Week 1 May 1999, Week 5 May 1999, Week 4 May 1999, Week 3 May 1999, Week 2 May 1999, Week 1 April 1999, Week 5 April 1999, Week 4 April 1999, Week 3 April 1999, Week 2 April 1999, Week 1 March 1999, Week 5 March 1999, Week 4 March 1999, Week 3 March 1999, Week 2 March 1999, Week 1 February 1999, Week 5 February 1999, Week 4 February 1999, Week 3 February 1999, Week 2 February 1999, Week 1 January 1999, Week 5 January 1999, Week 4 January 1999, Week 3 January 1999, Week 2 January 1999, Week 1 December 1998, Week 5 December 1998, Week 4 December 1998, Week 3 December 1998, Week 2 December 1998, Week 1 November 1998, Week 5 November 1998, Week 4 November 1998, Week 3 November 1998, Week 2 November 1998, Week 1 October 1998, Week 5 October 1998, Week 4 October 1998, Week 3 October 1998, Week 2 October 1998, Week 1 September 1998, Week 5 September 1998, Week 4 September 1998, Week 3
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