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Hallo conlangers!
On Friday 03 August 2012 09:26:02 R A Brown wrote:
> On 02/08/2012 17:50, And Rosta wrote:
> > R A Brown, On 25/07/2012 17:57:
> >> I notice that And correctly referred to Livagian being
> >>
> >> publicated in 1991, not published.
> >
> > Actually I said "It is a conlang that has been much
> > mentioned on Conlang (almost always by me, of course) but
> > never publicated",
>
> OOPS! That'll reach me to check the original and not rely on
> memory alone.
Right, Livagian has been mentioned often but never fully
publicated, let alone published.
> > meaning that even if you distinguish between formal
> > publication (publishing) on the one hand and merely
> > making something available to the public (publicating)
> > on the other hand, Livagian does not even satisfy the
> > laxer criteria.
>
> Tho a couple of sample in Conlang relays did subsequently
> appear - but they were later than the 1991 quoted by Arika
> Okrent.
Yes. And they look so different from each other (as far as
I remember them) that at least one major revision must have
happened in between.
> By her own admission the criteria for including pre-Internet
> conlangs is stricter than that of Internet conlangs. But
> even so, i think it is fairly from other mails in this
> thread that there are some bizarre omissions as well as
> inclusions in both categories of conlangs.
Sure. But at least, she gives some mention of the Internet
conlang community - which is blissfully ignored in many books
on artificial languages (though, of course, many of the books
I have read were written before our community emerged and
therefore could hardly cover it).
One of my back burner projects is a small book (in German)
about conlangs, which will cover all sorts of conlangs
- auxlangs, artlangs, engelangs, both published and online.
Of course, it won't treat every conlang I know but merely
a few selected examples of each category. (But don't hold
your breath for that book: I have other projects which are
higher in priority!)
> >> There are some fine Conlangs published on the web
> >> which do not get mentioned; I just give two above
> >
> > I too am fond of Liva and Kinya and their authors (tho I
> >
> > wonder if that's partly a consequence of my having
> >
> > encountered them at a time when conlangs were rare enough
> > that I had time to study each new conlang I
> > encountered).
>
> Maybe - but I think what attracted me most to Liva (which,
> for those who don't know it, is a loglang) was its
> phonology. As many know, that is possibly the aspect of
> language I find most interesting. Claudio has a eight-fold
> vowel system, reminiscent of Turkish, which he arranged in
> two ranks of four: four high vowels and four low vowels. He
> follows this grouping of four through his series of
> consonants: voiced plosives, unvoiced plosives, nasals,
> laterals, voiced fricatives, unvoiced fricatives.
>
> Thus he has a matrix of 8 x 4 = 32 phonemes.
Which is just asking for being written in a Tengwar-like
featural script!
> But revisiting
> this, I'm not so happy about his 'laterals'. The IPA chart
> gives symbols for his dental/alveolar, palatal and velar
> laterals, the spaces for labial (and labiodental) lateral is
> blanked out, meaning the sound is not humanly possible.
> Claudio described his 'labial lateral' thus: "[the sound] is
> obtained by putting the tongue tip between the lips and
> pronouncing a sort of 'L'."
An elegant, symmetric system that fails at the limits of the
human articulatory tract. There is no way fixing that - you
have to choose one of the following three:
1. Include an abstract "phoneme" that nobody can pronounce.
2. Break the symmetry by filling in a phoneme that doesn't
really fit its place in the grid.
3. Leave a gap in the grid (which also breaks the symmetry).
Such problems tend to crop up in conlangs which try to be more
regular than practical.
> His phonotactics were interesting - but I won't go into them
> here, except to say that they meant that "a string of
> phonemes is completely parsable both in written and spoken
> speech. Blank spaces or pauses thus are not necessary, and
> words can be written as a continuous string." But he did
> add: "Nevertheless, bland spaces are okay as a visual help."
I.e., a self-segregating morphology? As much as those beasts
are out of place in naturalistic languages, in a loglang it
absolutely makes sense!
> It is the sort of thing I have attempted in BrSc and its
> various descendants. Also I have long adopted, and quite
> independently, the same principle as Claudio: "There are two
> main word classes: semantic words and syntactic words ....
> Semantic words are not distinguished as nouns, verbs,
> adjectives, etc."
All of which, of course, are predicate words which means that
there is good reason to treat them alike in a loglang. I do
treat them alike in Quetch (though I don't claim that Quetch
was a loglang). In Quetch, "semantic words" are consonants
and "syntactic words" are vowels, which I hope is a halfways
practical way of implementing a speedtalk.
> As for Kinya, I find this language even more attractive. For
> those who do not know it, Kinya is an artlang with its
> fictional speakers, con-history etc. such that it could
> belong to the League of Lost Languages (it does not, because
> the LLL did not exist when Maurizio Gavioli created the
> language.
Is it naturalistic? I expect such a fictional language to be
naturalistic, and dislike engelanginess and cookie-cutter
regularity in such languages.
> I like the detail that Maurizio spent on describing the
> language. It also had vowel harmony, which is a feature I've
> always liked. Indeed, some may remember that it featured in
> early versions of BrSc.
>
> Once again we find "[a] major peculiarity of Kinya is its
> lack of any morphological distinction between categories
> like verbs, substantive or adjective." However, the
> language does have inflexions and the grammar is original
> and described in some detail. I particularly liked his
> attention to metrics, which so few conlangers seem to bother
> about.
Yes, such finesses are rarely treated in conlang grammars,
even in most of the more extensive ones.
> On researching further, I find that Kinya was around at
> least by 1996.
>
> >> (tho sadly I find that the Kinya site is no longer
> >> maintained)
> >
> > I think a pdf with built-in permission to recirculate is
> >
> > better than webpages, for this sort of reason.
>
> Yes - I ordinary text copy of Maurizio's description of the
> language which I could easily put into pdf format and post
> on my website. I'll try to contact Maurizio, as IMO not
> having a version of Kinya available on the web is a great loss.
If I ever saw it, I don't remember it - I only know that there
was a conlang named Kinya, but know nothing about it. But it
is still being mentioned now and then, which makes me curious!
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
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2005, Week 1 October 2005, Week 5 October 2005, Week 4 October 2005, Week 3 October 2005, Week 2 October 2005, Week 1 September 2005, Week 5 September 2005, Week 4 September 2005, Week 3 September 2005, Week 2 September 2005, Week 1 August 2005, Week 5 August 2005, Week 4 August 2005, Week 3 August 2005, Week 2 August 2005, Week 1 July 2005, Week 5 July 2005, Week 4 July 2005, Week 3 July 2005, Week 2 July 2005, Week 1 June 2005, Week 5 June 2005, Week 4 June 2005, Week 3 June 2005, Week 2 June 2005, Week 1 May 2005, Week 5 May 2005, Week 4 May 2005, Week 3 May 2005, Week 2 May 2005, Week 1 April 2005, Week 5 April 2005, Week 4 April 2005, Week 3 April 2005, Week 2 April 2005, Week 1 March 2005, Week 5 March 2005, Week 4 March 2005, Week 3 March 2005, Week 2 March 2005, Week 1 February 2005, Week 4 February 2005, Week 3 February 2005, Week 2 February 2005, Week 1 January 2005, Week 5 January 2005, Week 4 January 2005, Week 3 January 2005, Week 2 January 2005, Week 1 December 2004, Week 5 December 2004, Week 4 December 2004, Week 3 December 2004, Week 2 December 2004, Week 1 November 2004, Week 5 November 2004, Week 4 November 2004, Week 3 November 2004, Week 2 November 2004, Week 1 October 2004, Week 5 October 2004, Week 4 October 2004, Week 3 October 2004, Week 2 October 2004, Week 1 September 2004, Week 5 September 2004, Week 4 September 2004, Week 3 September 2004, Week 2 September 2004, Week 1 August 2004, Week 5 August 2004, Week 4 August 2004, Week 3 August 2004, Week 2 August 2004, Week 1 July 2004, Week 5 July 2004, Week 4 July 2004, Week 3 July 2004, Week 2 July 2004, Week 1 June 2004, Week 5 June 2004, Week 4 June 2004, Week 3 June 2004, Week 2 June 2004, Week 1 May 2004, Week 5 May 2004, Week 4 May 2004, Week 3 May 2004, Week 2 May 2004, Week 1 April 2004, Week 5 April 2004, Week 4 April 2004, Week 3 April 2004, Week 2 April 2004, Week 1 March 2004, Week 5 March 2004, Week 4 March 2004, Week 3 March 2004, Week 2 March 2004, Week 1 February 2004, Week 5 February 2004, Week 4 February 2004, Week 3 February 2004, Week 2 February 2004, Week 1 January 2004, Week 5 January 2004, Week 4 January 2004, Week 3 January 2004, Week 2 January 2004, Week 1 December 2003, Week 5 December 2003, Week 4 December 2003, Week 3 December 2003, Week 2 December 2003, Week 1 November 2003, Week 5 November 2003, Week 4 November 2003, Week 3 November 2003, Week 2 November 2003, Week 1 October 2003, Week 5 October 2003, Week 4 October 2003, Week 3 October 2003, Week 2 October 2003, Week 1 September 2003, Week 5 September 2003, Week 4 September 2003, Week 3 September 2003, Week 2 September 2003, Week 1 August 2003, Week 5 August 2003, Week 4 August 2003, Week 3 August 2003, Week 2 August 2003, Week 1 July 2003, Week 5 July 2003, Week 4 July 2003, Week 3 July 2003, Week 2 July 2003, Week 1 June 2003, Week 5 June 2003, Week 4 June 2003, Week 3 June 2003, Week 2 June 2003, Week 1 May 2003, Week 5 May 2003, Week 4 May 2003, Week 3 May 2003, Week 2 May 2003, Week 1 April 2003, Week 5 April 2003, Week 4 April 2003, Week 3 April 2003, Week 2 April 2003, Week 1 March 2003, Week 5 March 2003, Week 4 March 2003, Week 3 March 2003, Week 2 March 2003, Week 1 February 2003, Week 4 February 2003, Week 3 February 2003, Week 2 February 2003, Week 1 January 2003, Week 5 January 2003, Week 4 January 2003, Week 3 January 2003, Week 2 January 2003, Week 1 December 2002, Week 5 December 2002, Week 4 December 2002, Week 3 December 2002, Week 2 December 2002, Week 1 November 2002, Week 5 November 2002, Week 4 November 2002, Week 3 November 2002, Week 2 November 2002, Week 1 October 2002, Week 5 October 2002, Week 4 October 2002, Week 3 October 2002, Week 2 October 2002, Week 1 September 2002, Week 5 September 2002, Week 4 September 2002, Week 3 September 2002, Week 2 September 2002, Week 1 August 2002, Week 5 August 2002, Week 4 August 2002, Week 3 August 2002, Week 2 August 2002, Week 1 July 2002, Week 5 July 2002, Week 4 July 2002, Week 3 July 2002, Week 2 July 2002, Week 1 June 2002, Week 5 June 2002, Week 4 June 2002, Week 3 June 2002, Week 2 June 2002, Week 1 May 2002, Week 5 May 2002, Week 4 May 2002, Week 3 May 2002, Week 2 May 2002, Week 1 April 2002, Week 5 April 2002, Week 4 April 2002, Week 3 April 2002, Week 2 April 2002, Week 1 March 2002, Week 5 March 2002, Week 4 March 2002, Week 3 March 2002, Week 2 March 2002, Week 1 February 2002, Week 4 February 2002, Week 3 February 2002, Week 2 February 2002, Week 1 January 2002, Week 5 January 2002, Week 4 January 2002, Week 3 January 2002, Week 2 January 2002, Week 1 December 2001, Week 5 December 2001, Week 4 December 2001, Week 3 December 2001, Week 2 December 2001, Week 1 November 2001, Week 5 November 2001, Week 4 November 2001, Week 3 November 2001, Week 2 November 2001, Week 1 October 2001, Week 5 October 2001, Week 4 October 2001, Week 3 October 2001, Week 2 October 2001, Week 1 September 2001, Week 5 September 2001, Week 4 September 2001, Week 3 September 2001, Week 2 September 2001, Week 1 August 2001, Week 5 August 2001, Week 4 August 2001, Week 3 August 2001, Week 2 August 2001, Week 1 July 2001, Week 5 July 2001, Week 4 July 2001, Week 3 July 2001, Week 2 July 2001, Week 1 June 2001, Week 5 June 2001, Week 4 June 2001, Week 3 June 2001, Week 2 June 2001, Week 1 May 2001, Week 5 May 2001, Week 4 May 2001, Week 3 May 2001, Week 2 May 2001, Week 1 April 2001, Week 5 April 2001, Week 4 April 2001, Week 3 April 2001, Week 2 April 2001, Week 1 March 2001, Week 5 March 2001, Week 4 March 2001, Week 3 March 2001, Week 2 March 2001, Week 1 February 2001, Week 4 February 2001, Week 3 February 2001, Week 2 February 2001, Week 1 January 2001, Week 5 January 2001, Week 4 January 2001, Week 3 January 2001, Week 2 January 2001, Week 1 December 2000, Week 5 December 2000, Week 4 December 2000, Week 3 December 2000, Week 2 December 2000, Week 1 November 2000, Week 5 November 2000, Week 4 November 2000, Week 3 November 2000, Week 2 November 2000, Week 1 October 2000, Week 5 October 2000, Week 4 October 2000, Week 3 October 2000, Week 2 October 2000, Week 1 September 2000, Week 5 September 2000, Week 4 September 2000, Week 3 September 2000, Week 2 September 2000, Week 1 August 2000, Week 5 August 2000, Week 4 August 2000, Week 3 August 2000, Week 2 August 2000, Week 1 July 2000, Week 5 July 2000, Week 4 July 2000, Week 3 July 2000, Week 2 July 2000, Week 1 June 2000, Week 5 June 2000, Week 4 June 2000, Week 3 June 2000, Week 2 June 2000, Week 1 May 2000, Week 5 May 2000, Week 4 May 2000, Week 3 May 2000, Week 2 May 2000, Week 1 April 2000, Week 5 April 2000, Week 4 April 2000, Week 3 April 2000, Week 2 April 2000, Week 1 March 2000, Week 5 March 2000, Week 4 March 2000, Week 3 March 2000, Week 2 March 2000, Week 1 February 2000, Week 5 February 2000, Week 4 February 2000, Week 3 February 2000, Week 2 February 2000, Week 1 January 2000, Week 5 January 2000, Week 4 January 2000, Week 3 January 2000, Week 2 January 2000, Week 1 December 1999, Week 5 December 1999, Week 4 December 1999, Week 3 December 1999, Week 2 December 1999, Week 1 November 1999, Week 5 November 1999, Week 4 November 1999, Week 3 November 1999, Week 2 November 1999, Week 1 October 1999, Week 5 October 1999, Week 4 October 1999, Week 3 October 1999, Week 2 October 1999, Week 1 September 1999, Week 5 September 1999, Week 4 September 1999, Week 3 September 1999, Week 2 September 1999, Week 1 August 1999, Week 5 August 1999, Week 4 August 1999, Week 3 August 1999, Week 2 August 1999, Week 1 July 1999, Week 5 July 1999, Week 4 July 1999, Week 3 July 1999, Week 2 July 1999, Week 1 June 1999, Week 5 June 1999, Week 4 June 1999, Week 3 June 1999, Week 2 June 1999, Week 1 May 1999, Week 5 May 1999, Week 4 May 1999, Week 3 May 1999, Week 2 May 1999, Week 1 April 1999, Week 5 April 1999, Week 4 April 1999, Week 3 April 1999, Week 2 April 1999, Week 1 March 1999, Week 5 March 1999, Week 4 March 1999, Week 3 March 1999, Week 2 March 1999, Week 1 February 1999, Week 5 February 1999, Week 4 February 1999, Week 3 February 1999, Week 2 February 1999, Week 1 January 1999, Week 5 January 1999, Week 4 January 1999, Week 3 January 1999, Week 2 January 1999, Week 1 December 1998, Week 5 December 1998, Week 4 December 1998, Week 3 December 1998, Week 2 December 1998, Week 1 November 1998, Week 5 November 1998, Week 4 November 1998, Week 3 November 1998, Week 2 November 1998, Week 1 October 1998, Week 5 October 1998, Week 4 October 1998, Week 3 October 1998, Week 2 October 1998, Week 1 September 1998, Week 5 September 1998, Week 4 September 1998, Week 3
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