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CONLANG  August 2012, Week 4

CONLANG August 2012, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Conlang classification

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 25 Aug 2012 17:04:44 +0200

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (233 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Saturday 25 August 2012 09:39:57 R A Brown wrote:

> On 24/08/2012 19:59, And Rosta wrote:
> [...]
> > I had better hedge that Brithenig had been introduced
> > into the discussion (as I understood it) as an academic
> > exercise in working out what a Romance lg in Britain
> > would have been like
> 
> Always best to go to the source and check what a language
> creator actually says:
> "Brithenig started as a thought-experiment to create a
> Romance language that might have evolved if Latin speakers
> had been a sufficient number to displace Old Celtic as the
> spoken language of the people in Great Britain."
> http://steen.free.fr/brithenig/introduction.html
> 
> "that might have evolved" is rather different IMO from
> "would have looked like."

Indeed.  This is something that is often gotten wrong about
alternative histories.  They do not lay out what *would* have
happened if some event went otherwise, but what *could* have
happened.  The former is something we will never know; the
latter is something that can be explored.
 
> In all my correspondence with Andrew he has never claimed
> that Brithenig is what a British Romance would actually have
> looked like.  Indeed, more than once in the past he has
> encouraged me to develop what I think a British Romance
> language would have looked like.  So far, I have not taken
> up this invitation; but possibly if I have time before I
> quit this mortal coil.

That would be fine.  There are certainly many possible ways
what a Britanno-Romance language could have looked like, and
Brithenig is just one of them.

I also entertained the idea of developing my own Britanno-
Romance language (for the League of Lost Languages) that
would go down a different road than Brithenig.  Alas, I have
enough project to pursue already, and I have no concete plans
for this language.
 
> > (possibly with certain auxiliary assumptions like that it
> > would follow Welsh diachrony),
> 
> With assumptions all the way through - not possibly, but
> necessarily so.  I've listed the more important assumptions
> already.

Sure.  Brithenig is made, as far as I understand it, with a
_ceteris paribus_ approach which changes the course of events
just enough to make the desired alternative outcome - a living
Britanno-Romance language in this case - possible and plausible.
That is an approach often taken by alternative historians.
As far as I understand this, this meant that the sound changes
of the language would not differ more from those of Welsh than
necessary.  Of course, that doesn't mean that they would be
"the same": they cannot really be because the starting point
is different, such that Andrew had to apply modifications in
order to have them make sense.
 
> > and my intention is to put forward certain arguments not
> > about Brithenig per se but rather about any conlang that
> > is an attempt to take a natlang and model, as an academic
> > exercise, its probable future diachrony to work out what
> > it would most likely be like, given whatever auxiliary
> > assumptions about influences on its diachrony.
> 
> But, with respect, by talking of _probable_ future diachrony
> you've already shifted from the _possible_ future diachrony
> of Brithenig.  Andrew quite clearly says on his introductory
> page: "I did this for fun."

Yes.  He did this for fun, nothing else.  He found the
elaboration of a fictional Britanno-Romance language an
interesting and entertaining challenge to pursue. 
 
> > To avoid irrelevant discussions about the nature of
> > Brithenig per se, I'll refer instead to a hypothetical
> > Neo-Romano-British (NRB) conlang, an attempt to
> > 'forward-reconstruct' what a Romance lg in Britain would
> > most likely have been like.
> 
> IMHO discussion about Brithenig has been irrelevant.  The
> type of problems that have been referred to will crop up
> with any attempt to forward construct a NRB.  All you do
> below is to shift from have one person make subjective
> decisions to a committee making more objective decisions.

Yes.  These are problems of altlangs in general.
 
> [snip]
> 
> > Developing NRB would be a perfectly valid and viable
> > academic exercise, amenable to reasoned discussion about
> > which candidate design best satisfied the goal of NRB,
> > and with emerging consensus about which solutions were
> > the likeliest. New discoveries about language or the
> > history of Dark Age Britain might move the goalposts,
> > but the goalposts would move for everybody, and
> > evaluations of the success of a given design candidate
> > would always be relative to a set of goalposts.
> 
> But that is an entirely different scenario from Brithenig!

It is.
 
> The scenario you put forward is of a _group_ of people who,
> presumably, seriously want to construct what in their view
> is the the most probable end result of the development of
> a romance language in Britain. These guys are going to argue
> out every stage and make what seems to them the most likely
> choice.

The result of such a group process would probably be different
from Andrew's language, though some similarities would still
crop up (e.g., it seems to be likely that intervocalic stops
would undergo some kind of lenition, as that has happened both
in the British Celtic and the Western Romance languages).
 
> > More generally, the naturalness of a hypothetical
> > language could similarly be subjected to reasoned
> > academic debate and yield an emerging consensus.
> 
> Exactly - debate and consensus at each stage.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > It must have an objectively assassable way --
> > 'measurable' in a broad sense.
> 
> Yes, at each stage one could argue that the group would be
> looking at objective criteria and then by debate, argument
> etc arrive at a consensus that by some measure or other is
> considered the most likely.  But the objective criteria
> would be imperfect or fuzzy data.

Sure.  Such a method would be more "objective" than Andrew's
artistic creation, even if there still would not be any way
to actually *measure* the "degree of plausibility" of the
resulting language.
 
> >> You can't have such a yardstick when the goal itself
> >> is not strictly well-defined. That doesn't mean that
> >> you can't have a conlang with fuzzy goals, just that
> >> with such a conlang the only way to decide whether it
> >> achieves its goals or not will be personal opinion,
> >> which by definition moves the conlang in the artlang
> >> group.
> > 
> > I agree with this, of course. My point is that NRB, even
> > tho it would look like a highly naturalistic conlang,

It would certainly be highly naturalistic if the group did
their thing well!  An unnaturalistic NRB would be a failure
as it would certainly not be the most likely outcome of the
alternative history.

> > would be an engelang because its goals would allow
> > candidate solutions to be objectively assessed and
> > different people's solutions would tend to converge.
> 
> Would they? I wonder.

So do I.  There are many ways one could come up with something
"plausible" here.  One way would be to model the changes that
the language underwent after the changes that British Celtic
underwent in our world (that's similar to Andrew's approach);
another would be to look at the isogloss patterns found in
the actual Romance languages and extrapolate them to come up
with what a Romance language would have looked like that lies
even farther north than Norman French.  Both would not seem
implausible, but they would certainly lead to very different
languages!
 
> > Faced with a candidate design for NRB, appropriate
> > responses would be not "Ooh I like that" or "De gustibus
> > non est disputandum", but would be an objective
> > assessment of it in the light of our knowledge of
> > synchronic and diachronic linguistics and British
> > history, and multiple assessors' views would tend to
> > converge, and would tend to converge on favouring an
> > ever smaller set of candidate designs.
> 
> Maybe - but while disputes would not be about aesthetics,
> there would be disputes about the likelihood of different
> solutions and all it would need would be two strong-willed
> people, each holding that his/her objective assessment more
> closely meets the objective criteria (and that is not at all
> unlikely when dealing with imperfect data) for the thing to
> fall apart.

Yep.  And the disputes would be much more energetic because they
would be about "truth" and not just about "beauty"!
 
> But even assuming this group succeeded, what you are
> envisaging is something very different from Brithenig.  This
> is "engineering" by committee which evaluates each stage
> and, hopefully, reaches a consensus before moving on.
> 
> I agree this does not fit the mould of artlang.  On the
> other hand, I find it difficult to imagine a group spending
> a lot of time (and it would need to be) working like this to
> derive what the group considers to be the most likely NRB.
> 
> If any "might be" conlang were to be developed in this way
> then I may concede that it has been engineered.  But AFAIK
> this has never happened.

I know of no such example, either.  Yet, if a group of academic
linguists would indeed embark on such a research project (which
seems unlikely now, as so many people in the academic community,
especially those who decide how much money is spent on which
projects, are quite obsessed with applicability), the outcome
would be an engelang - a naturalistic engelang, even!
 
> Meanwhile, I'll leave Brithenig on my Glossopoeia page as an
> _artlang_ "firmly placed on earth but in a different
> timeline from our own."
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Glosso/Glossopoeia.html#modern_artlangs
[link corrected]

Yes.  It is an artlang.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"BÍsel asa …am, a …am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha …amal." - SiM 1:1

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July 2011, Week 3
July 2011, Week 2
July 2011, Week 1
June 2011, Week 5
June 2011, Week 4
June 2011, Week 3
June 2011, Week 2
June 2011, Week 1
May 2011, Week 5
May 2011, Week 4
May 2011, Week 3
May 2011, Week 2
May 2011, Week 1
April 2011, Week 5
April 2011, Week 4
April 2011, Week 3
April 2011, Week 2
April 2011, Week 1
March 2011, Week 5
March 2011, Week 4
March 2011, Week 3
March 2011, Week 2
March 2011, Week 1
February 2011, Week 4
February 2011, Week 3
February 2011, Week 2
February 2011, Week 1
January 2011, Week 5
January 2011, Week 4
January 2011, Week 3
January 2011, Week 2
January 2011, Week 1
December 2010, Week 5
December 2010, Week 4
December 2010, Week 3
December 2010, Week 2
December 2010, Week 1
November 2010, Week 5
November 2010, Week 4
November 2010, Week 3
November 2010, Week 2
November 2010, Week 1
October 2010, Week 5
October 2010, Week 4
October 2010, Week 3
October 2010, Week 2
October 2010, Week 1
September 2010, Week 5
September 2010, Week 4
September 2010, Week 3
September 2010, Week 2
September 2010, Week 1
August 2010, Week 5
August 2010, Week 4
August 2010, Week 3
August 2010, Week 2
August 2010, Week 1
July 2010, Week 5
July 2010, Week 4
July 2010, Week 3
July 2010, Week 2
July 2010, Week 1
June 2010, Week 5
June 2010, Week 4
June 2010, Week 3
June 2010, Week 2
June 2010, Week 1
May 2010, Week 5
May 2010, Week 4
May 2010, Week 3
May 2010, Week 2
May 2010, Week 1
April 2010, Week 5
April 2010, Week 4
April 2010, Week 3
April 2010, Week 2
April 2010, Week 1
March 2010, Week 5
March 2010, Week 4
March 2010, Week 3
March 2010, Week 2
March 2010, Week 1
February 2010, Week 4
February 2010, Week 3
February 2010, Week 2
February 2010, Week 1
January 2010, Week 5
January 2010, Week 4
January 2010, Week 3
January 2010, Week 2
January 2010, Week 1
December 2009, Week 5
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December 2009, Week 3
December 2009, Week 2
December 2009, Week 1
November 2009, Week 5
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November 2009, Week 3
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November 2009, Week 1
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October 2009, Week 4
October 2009, Week 3
October 2009, Week 2
October 2009, Week 1
September 2009, Week 5
September 2009, Week 4
September 2009, Week 3
September 2009, Week 2
September 2009, Week 1
August 2009, Week 5
August 2009, Week 4
August 2009, Week 3
August 2009, Week 2
August 2009, Week 1
July 2009, Week 5
July 2009, Week 4
July 2009, Week 3
July 2009, Week 2
July 2009, Week 1
June 2009, Week 5
June 2009, Week 4
June 2009, Week 3
June 2009, Week 2
June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 5
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
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November 2008, Week 5
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November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
August 2007, Week 2
August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
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November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
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October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
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September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
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March 2004, Week 1
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February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 3
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August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 3
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 3
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February 2000, Week 1
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December 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
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April 1999, Week 1
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February 1999, Week 1
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December 1998, Week 5
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