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CONLANG Home

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CONLANG  April 2013, Week 2

CONLANG April 2013, Week 2

Subject:

The Mitian problem (was: Have anyone read the "Basic Linguistic Theory"-books by Dixon?)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 12 Apr 2013 21:50:29 +0200

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (138 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Friday 12 April 2013 20:45:17 BPJ wrote:

> 2013-04-12 02:36, Alex Fink skrev:
> > On Thu, 11 Apr 2013 22:57:00 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier 
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >> Hallo conlangers!
> [...]
> >> But the impasse with the "Mitian" problem (eight or
> >> perhaps even more stocks in northern Eurasia looking
> >> like relatives, and yet all attempts at proving
> >> their relationship have been inconclusive so far)
> >> may mean that the family tree model has its
> >> problems.
> > 
> > The family tree model may have its problems, but they
> > shouldn't necessarily receive the blame for this.

Indeed not.  I still feel that these language families indeed
form a single genealogical unit.  Look, we have eight stocks
occupying a single contiguous area, with similarities (most
conspicuously the pronoun roots) that are hard to explain
otherwise.  This does not look like a pattern that could have
arisen by chance.  Borrowing also doesn't look very likely
(though I have to admit that it cannot safely be excluded).
This makes a single common ancestor IMHO the most likely
explanation.

Add to this that the area where these stocks originated is
a huge spread zone in Nichols's terms, where people have been
on the move on a large scale during much of known history,
and it is quite plausible that a single lineage expanded,
perhaps from somewhere near Lake Baykal, about inner Eurasia
at the end of the last ice age.

Alas, the time depth presumed in this scenario - about 12,000
years - is so great that the comparative method reaches its
limits.

> >      To
> > make a point I've made here before, a big part of the
> > problem is that people don't appreciate that the time
> > depths of reconstructible branchings usually get
> > further and further apart the further back in time
> > you go, and thus the proportion of common retentions
> > gets smaller and smaller even across each individual
> > step as you go back.

Sure.  If you look at Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Uralic,
for instance, they don't look as similar to each other as,
for example, Latin and Ancient Greek do; it is more like,
two modern IE languages from different branches, if not
worse.  So you get about *twice* the time depth of IE and
Uralic for a putative "Indo-Uralic", if not more.

Another difficulty, of course, is that most of the relevant
families lack ancient written records.  You have to start
with the *modern* languages.  Also, some of them are really
shallow.  Proto-Turkic was spoken only about 2,000 years
ago; Proto-Yukaghir is probably only about half that age.

> >      Indeed, if you assume that
> > you're not dealing with agressive expansionism, of
> > the sort that as far as I can imagine only very-
> > dominant new military technologies or being the very
> > first settlers of the land in question would
> > consistently give you, the time depths should be
> > expected to get *exponentially* larger. The
> > comparative method just runs out of juice.
> 
> Agreed. My main beef with the family tree model is that
> *language contact exists* and that anything can be
> borrowed, which doesn't invalidate the model but must
> be taken into account. I guess that the family tree
> model, the wave model and the punctuated equilibrium
> model all have something to contribute. None of them is
> the whole truth, and none of them is wholly untrue.

Right.  Before a language breaks up, innovations spread
through it in various directions, and you get a pattern
of intersecting isoglosses as can be seen on the dialect
map of any of the major languages of Europe, for instance.
The wave model.  But contact phenomena such as borrowing
or convergence towards a similar phonology or grammatical
typology happens even between *unrelated* languages, there
are numerous examples for that.  

Certainly, some of the similarities we can observe in the
Mitian complex result from language contact.  Perhaps in
an age when the eight protolanguages huddled closer to
each other than in later times.  Of course, Iceland is a
far cry from Greenland when you have to go via Europe and
Siberia, but Ukraine and Chukotka are only about half as
far apart (still, it is a very large distance), and if
you turn back the clock another 5,000 years, the lineages
that would eventually become PIE and Proto-Eskimo-Aleut
may have been only a few hundred kilometers away from
each other somewhere in southern Siberia.

(Another matter is, of course, subgrouping.  Is Altaic a
valid node within Mitian?  Or Indo-Uralic?  Or Uralic-
Yukaghir?  Etc.)

> > [One version of a thought experiment to justify this
> > "exponential" stuff. Since we're assuming no
> > aggressive expansionism, the homeland of the common
> > ancestor of a family of languages should have been
> > around the center of the region its descendants
> > occupy. Now, imagine you've got some big family. As
> > you go back in time one, two, three, four, ...
> > branchings -- suppose they're binary branchings --
> > then you're looking at common ancestors of 2, 4, 8,
> > 16, ... languages. The territories covered by the
> > families of descendants are getting exponentially
> > larger; so the ancestral homelands are getting spaced
> > exponentially further apart; so since languages move
> > at a constant rate,

Not really, it fluctuates; but around a mean that probably *is*
constant.

> >     the time for each branching to
> > happen is getting exponentially larger.]
> 
> Imagine English dies out everywhere but New Zealand and
> then spreads from there again, then try to reconstruct
> the pattern of English loans in various languages after
> 1K years. Makes the whole homeland business moot in
> both the British and American sense!

A nice thought experiment.

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1

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October 2009, Week 5
October 2009, Week 4
October 2009, Week 3
October 2009, Week 2
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September 2009, Week 5
September 2009, Week 4
September 2009, Week 3
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August 2009, Week 5
August 2009, Week 4
August 2009, Week 3
August 2009, Week 2
August 2009, Week 1
July 2009, Week 5
July 2009, Week 4
July 2009, Week 3
July 2009, Week 2
July 2009, Week 1
June 2009, Week 5
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June 2009, Week 3
June 2009, Week 2
June 2009, Week 1
May 2009, Week 5
May 2009, Week 4
May 2009, Week 3
May 2009, Week 2
May 2009, Week 1
April 2009, Week 5
April 2009, Week 4
April 2009, Week 3
April 2009, Week 2
April 2009, Week 1
March 2009, Week 5
March 2009, Week 4
March 2009, Week 3
March 2009, Week 2
March 2009, Week 1
February 2009, Week 4
February 2009, Week 3
February 2009, Week 2
February 2009, Week 1
January 2009, Week 5
January 2009, Week 4
January 2009, Week 3
January 2009, Week 2
January 2009, Week 1
December 2008, Week 5
December 2008, Week 4
December 2008, Week 3
December 2008, Week 2
December 2008, Week 1
November 2008, Week 5
November 2008, Week 4
November 2008, Week 3
November 2008, Week 2
November 2008, Week 1
October 2008, Week 5
October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
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September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
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July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
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April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
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March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
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September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
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March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
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August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
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November 2000, Week 3
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November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
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March 2000, Week 5
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March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
June 1999, Week 2
June 1999, Week 1
May 1999, Week 5
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
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September 1998, Week 3

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