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CONLANG  October 2013, Week 3

CONLANG October 2013, Week 3

Subject:

On amateur scholars (was: How to present a conlang?)

From:

Jörg Rhiemeier <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 18 Oct 2013 17:31:48 +0200

Content-Type:

Text/Plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

Text/Plain (118 lines)

Hallo conlangers!

On Friday 18 October 2013 15:32:37 And Rosta wrote:

> BPJ, On 17/10/2013 16:07:
> > @And: are you implying that genetic linguistics isn't a
> > legitimate branch of linguistics? If so that's a bit pre 90's
> > too! I'll admit that it attracts its share of crackpots --
> > amateur and not --, but so do some other academic pursuits
> > deemed fully legitimate too IMNSHO. The more speculative a
> > discipline the more crackpottery-friendly it is, but traditional
> > comparative philology done right isn't as speculative as some
> > people want to believe.
> 
> No, I mean that nutter amateurs give amateurs a bad reputation and the
> attraction of amateurs (and indeed nutter amateurs) to conlanging and to
> long-range genetic linguistics gives those areas a bad reputation.

Yes, unfortunately.  There is so much nonsense being published
about long-range comparative linguistics that many linguists
fear to tread there.  And the most publicly visible branch of
conlanging is (or has been until recently) auxlanging, which
involves a surplus of zeal and a shortage of common sense.

But the tide is turning slowly with regards to conlanging; the
publicity of fictional languages such as Klingon or Dothraki
is beginning to eclipse that of auxlangs such as Esperanto or
Novial, which has been stagnating for decades.  Sure, the 
making-up of languages for fictional peoples still has a geekish
ring to it, but as fantasy and science fiction become gradually
more socially acceptable, fictional languages are on the way
to becoming an art form considered legitimate.

>       (I
> myself don't think conlanging and long-range genetic linguistics should be
> decried or shunned, and I think scholars, both professional and amateur,
> should unite in decrying and shunning the professional--amateur
> distinction, and I feel disgusted by the way journals publish professional
> scholars' institutional affiliations, which serves as a way of excluding
> the amateurs, but better ways would need to be found of avoiding the
> deleterious effects of nutters and trolls.)

Yes.  Many important discoveries have been made by amateurs,
undergraduate students and similar "outsiders"; this is
especially true in but not limited to the humanities.  Sure,
amateurs cannot afford such tools of "big science" as
supercomputers, particle colliders or interplanetary probes,
but "big science" has no monopoly on meaningful research.
In many fields of study, from astronomy to archeology,
contributions of amateurs are paramount simply because the
professionals cannot look everywhere.  And historical
linguistics certainly is not "big science" with expensive
laboratory equipment: all you need is a study (a desk in a
corner of your living room will do), access to good libraries,
connections to other scholars in order to discuss your ideas,
and - the most important thing - common sense and knowledge
of proper methodology.

This divide between professionals and amateurs is found in
many arts as well; consider the snobbishness with which many
academically trained classical musicians look down on their
often self-trained colleagues in folk and popular music.  But
if you ask me, after 1945, modern jazz and, later, progressive
rock have brought forth better and more heart-moving music than
the academic composers of the time who were busy playing with
12-tone series and similar concepts and producing complex but
inhumane and meaningless constructs.
 
> It's true that speculativeness enables crackpottery, but not all
> speculative areas attract crackpots. For example, current Minimalist
> theory is highly speculative (but also highly technical) and doesn't
> attract crackpots.

Sure.  Speculation is the first step in scholarly endeavour.
It always starts with a hypothesis of which nobody knows in
the first place whether it makes sense or not.
 
> > People thought I couldn't remember, tell or care if I was wearing
> > my conlangers hat or my scientist's hat. I say some of the nutty
> > stuff which has found its way into comp. phil. and other
> > linguistic journals maybe hadn't if its authors had consciously
> > and admittingly put on a conlanger's hat from time to time,
> > rather than expressing their creative impulse in too wild
> > 'serious' hypotheses!

Misguided hypotheses about natlangs sometimes make good
starting points for conlangs ;)

I am an amateur historical linguist myself, and my main conlang
project, the Hesperic family, is informed by the results of my
endeavours into historical linguistics - but, as BPJ has noted
above, I must always be aware which hat I am wearing at the
moment.  There is not much that we can hope to find out about
the languages that were spoken in Europe before the spread of
Indo-European (there are traces, though, in words without good
IE etymologies in the western IE languages that may be substratum
loanwords, and in old geographical names, such as river names,
which also defy attempts to etymologize them on the base of known
languages and may date back to pre-IE times); my Hesperic
languages are based on these meagre results but expand on them
creatively and speculatively.  Yet, Hesperic remains a *fictional*
entity which may have some points in common with the actual lost
languages of pre-IE western Europe, but that's about it.

As BPJ has said, if you are both a historical linguist and a
conlanger, you must always keep yourself aware which hat you are
wearing at the moment; you have to limit the flow of information
strictly to *one* direction: from your historical linguistic work
to your conlangs.  I make ample use of the outcome of my research
on prehistoric languages in making up Hesperic; I *must not* let
myself be misguided by creative decisions I have made in making
up Hesperic in my research!

--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"BÍsel asa …am, a …am atha cvanthal a cvanth atha …amal." - SiM 1:1

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October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
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October 2006, Week 3
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October 2006, Week 1
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September 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
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November 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
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September 1999, Week 1
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August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
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July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
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November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
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