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Hallo conlangers!
On 01.06.2015 17:43, R A Brown wrote:
> Bogolangs may be fun but IMO are implausible.
Yes. The problem begins with grafting sound changes of one language (A)
onto the different phonology of another language (B). This always
requires fiddling just to make it "mechanically workable" (accounting
for phonemes of B that do not occur in A and are just not covered by
sound changes, dealing with rules of A that have nothing to apply them
to in B, and all that); and even if one gets it to be "mechanically
workable", that still doesn't mean that the changes make *sense*. After
all, a phonology is not only a set of phonemes and rules governing their
behaviour, it is also a world of possibilities for sound changes, and
this changes a lot when even a small part of the starting phonology is
changed.
So, sound changes that happened in A may just be unlikely to occur in B,
even if they are "mechanically workable". Of course, asking for the
"causes" of a set of sound changes may just be asking the wrong
question, but once you have a phonology, there are always things that
are more likely to happen to it than others. And when you take a
different phonology, you get *different* things that are more likely to
happen to others.
Here is a simple constructed example where the bogolang technique yields
an unnatural result: A has the stops and affricates /p t ts k q/, and
the following sound changes operating on them:
k > tʃ
q > k
A nice chain shift, which creates the set /p t ts tʃ k/. Fair. Now, let
B have just /p t k/ and no /q/, and applying the chain shift yields /p t
tʃ/, no /k/. Bummer. Such an inventory is not particularly likely.
Without /q/, the fronting of dorsals that happened in A makes no sense in B.
And that are just *structural* problems. The overall history of the
languages in question of course also needs to be taken into account.
Consider, for instance, Wenedyk. There is no plausible way of getting a
Romance language in a "Poland" that is otherwise recognizable as
Poland. You'll need an extension of the Roman Empire to the Vistula,
which would throw the history of Central Europe so utterly off the track
that ... I think I needn't say anything more about that. Wenedyk may be
an interesting and amusing *experiment*, but it is about as plausible as
the Sun is cold and dark ;) For the same reason, I have abandoned
Germanech - I could not come up with a plausible background history for
it (the best I could do about it was to place it somewhere northeast of
Heidelberg in the League of Lost Languages, and even that has its
problems). I have stated the case here:
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/farewell-to-romlangs.html
> I am trying, painfully slowly, to derive a (hopefully) plausible
> British Romlang. But the while I think the point of divergence of the
> alternate history of BART is not implausible, I do accept Puey's
> critique of my outline of the subsequent development of that alternate
> history. Although, in theory, my ceteris_paribus approach is
> possible, it is not, I concede, the most plausible development:
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/BART/index.html#caveat
Fair; there will be different people in BART than in our world, and that
makes a lot of difference in detail. There will be no Shakespeare and
no Tolkien, to name just two; but there will be many others we don't
know. Thus, the ceteris paribus approach won't apply to individuals -
but the overall course of events may still be similar to our world.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
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Week 2 February 2002, Week 1 January 2002, Week 5 January 2002, Week 4 January 2002, Week 3 January 2002, Week 2 January 2002, Week 1 December 2001, Week 5 December 2001, Week 4 December 2001, Week 3 December 2001, Week 2 December 2001, Week 1 November 2001, Week 5 November 2001, Week 4 November 2001, Week 3 November 2001, Week 2 November 2001, Week 1 October 2001, Week 5 October 2001, Week 4 October 2001, Week 3 October 2001, Week 2 October 2001, Week 1 September 2001, Week 5 September 2001, Week 4 September 2001, Week 3 September 2001, Week 2 September 2001, Week 1 August 2001, Week 5 August 2001, Week 4 August 2001, Week 3 August 2001, Week 2 August 2001, Week 1 July 2001, Week 5 July 2001, Week 4 July 2001, Week 3 July 2001, Week 2 July 2001, Week 1 June 2001, Week 5 June 2001, Week 4 June 2001, Week 3 June 2001, Week 2 June 2001, Week 1 May 2001, Week 5 May 2001, Week 4 May 2001, Week 3 May 2001, Week 2 May 2001, Week 1 April 2001, Week 5 April 2001, Week 4 April 2001, Week 3 April 2001, Week 2 April 2001, Week 1 March 2001, Week 5 March 2001, Week 4 March 2001, Week 3 March 2001, Week 2 March 2001, Week 1 February 2001, Week 4 February 2001, Week 3 February 2001, Week 2 February 2001, Week 1 January 2001, Week 5 January 2001, Week 4 January 2001, Week 3 January 2001, Week 2 January 2001, Week 1 December 2000, Week 5 December 2000, Week 4 December 2000, Week 3 December 2000, Week 2 December 2000, Week 1 November 2000, Week 5 November 2000, Week 4 November 2000, Week 3 November 2000, Week 2 November 2000, Week 1 October 2000, Week 5 October 2000, Week 4 October 2000, Week 3 October 2000, Week 2 October 2000, Week 1 September 2000, Week 5 September 2000, Week 4 September 2000, Week 3 September 2000, Week 2 September 2000, Week 1 August 2000, Week 5 August 2000, Week 4 August 2000, Week 3 August 2000, Week 2 August 2000, Week 1 July 2000, Week 5 July 2000, Week 4 July 2000, Week 3 July 2000, Week 2 July 2000, Week 1 June 2000, Week 5 June 2000, Week 4 June 2000, Week 3 June 2000, Week 2 June 2000, Week 1 May 2000, Week 5 May 2000, Week 4 May 2000, Week 3 May 2000, Week 2 May 2000, Week 1 April 2000, Week 5 April 2000, Week 4 April 2000, Week 3 April 2000, Week 2 April 2000, Week 1 March 2000, Week 5 March 2000, Week 4 March 2000, Week 3 March 2000, Week 2 March 2000, Week 1 February 2000, Week 5 February 2000, Week 4 February 2000, Week 3 February 2000, Week 2 February 2000, Week 1 January 2000, Week 5 January 2000, Week 4 January 2000, Week 3 January 2000, Week 2 January 2000, Week 1 December 1999, Week 5 December 1999, Week 4 December 1999, Week 3 December 1999, Week 2 December 1999, Week 1 November 1999, Week 5 November 1999, Week 4 November 1999, Week 3 November 1999, Week 2 November 1999, Week 1 October 1999, Week 5 October 1999, Week 4 October 1999, Week 3 October 1999, Week 2 October 1999, Week 1 September 1999, Week 5 September 1999, Week 4 September 1999, Week 3 September 1999, Week 2 September 1999, Week 1 August 1999, Week 5 August 1999, Week 4 August 1999, Week 3 August 1999, Week 2 August 1999, Week 1 July 1999, Week 5 July 1999, Week 4 July 1999, Week 3 July 1999, Week 2 July 1999, Week 1 June 1999, Week 5 June 1999, Week 4 June 1999, Week 3 June 1999, Week 2 June 1999, Week 1 May 1999, Week 5 May 1999, Week 4 May 1999, Week 3 May 1999, Week 2 May 1999, Week 1 April 1999, Week 5 April 1999, Week 4 April 1999, Week 3 April 1999, Week 2 April 1999, Week 1 March 1999, Week 5 March 1999, Week 4 March 1999, Week 3 March 1999, Week 2 March 1999, Week 1 February 1999, Week 5 February 1999, Week 4 February 1999, Week 3 February 1999, Week 2 February 1999, Week 1 January 1999, Week 5 January 1999, Week 4 January 1999, Week 3 January 1999, Week 2 January 1999, Week 1 December 1998, Week 5 December 1998, Week 4 December 1998, Week 3 December 1998, Week 2 December 1998, Week 1 November 1998, Week 5 November 1998, Week 4 November 1998, Week 3 November 1998, Week 2 November 1998, Week 1 October 1998, Week 5 October 1998, Week 4 October 1998, Week 3 October 1998, Week 2 October 1998, Week 1 September 1998, Week 5 September 1998, Week 4 September 1998, Week 3
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