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AUXLANG  November 1999, Week 2

AUXLANG November 1999, Week 2

Subject:

Going beyond difficult.

From:

"Robert J. Petry, C.L." <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 8 Nov 1999 00:03:58 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (360 lines)

Kjell Rehnstr=F6m wrote:
 
> >[kut]
>
> Bob wrote:
> > I didn't know Occidental when I started anymore than all the other
hundreds and
> > thousands who learned it in 1922 and on, without grammars and
dictionaries. They
> > started out just like I did. Picked up a copy of the first
Kosmoglott and began
> > reading. That's a real eyeopener.
> >
> Weren't the first adherents of Occidental dismounted Esperantists and
Idists.
> If they were thousends upon thousends I don't know.
 
There were Esperantists, Idoists, Peano and his followers, and a whole
bunch of others. And, as I
said "in 1922 and on...". Thousands did not take it up in 1922, but
over the years from 1922 did.
 
> > > It is easy if you teach a class,
> > > because then you can see what reception you get and adjust to
that, but if you
> > > are writing something that will be used by people in very
different situations
> > > or with different background you have to be very methodical about
the whole
> > > thing.
> >
> > These early folks by the thousands who learned Occidental from all
kinds of
> > background had no classes, no grammars and no dictionaries. It took
almost 5 years
> > before any came on the scene. There was just the jurnale and actual
usage.
> >
> We have two different pictures there. I glanced through some
Cosmoglottas, and
> what I found was a rather restricted circle, a kind of auxlang on
paper, and
> they were on and on and on again ranting about the advantages of
Occidental in
> comparison to Ido and Esperanto instead of letting the language speak
for
> itself.
 
Did you read the early first issues? I think you said you had access to
the later years. And,
secondly, those "occidentalists" who wrote about the other languages
were
explaining in most cases why they left those other languages for
Occidental. There is only one
picture, not two. And, they were not ranting, they were clearly
explaining
why they took up Occidental over Esp, etc. And, the language did speak
for itself, that's why they
were so enthused about telling why they took up Occidental. And, it
still speaks for itself. Further, since a lot of Esperantists and
Idoists and others lied vehemently
about Occidental in those years, the Occidentalists did nothing more
than set the record straight by answering their critics. You need to
read the whole story from
beginning to end Kjell. You might even enjoy it.
To use the word "ranting" is just a subtle way of implying something you
want to imply that is
derogatory, that isn't true, but sounds good. The implication to
"ranting"
is that we have a bunch of sour grape lunatics "ranting" against other
languages. They were not
ranting at all, anymore than someone who knows from experience what they
 
are talking about explaining the differences, and defending themselves
against blatant lies. And, to
use an "implication" and "inuendo" like the word "ranting" shows a
bias, but no facts.
 
> > > So when Charles said he succeeded better with Occidental than with
Interlingua
> > > I believe him. Two things can have happened. The things he had
learnt in
> > > Interlingua helped him in Occidental.
> >
> > Sounds good, but I doubt it, for none of the early people who
learned Occidental
> > the same way had any ILa training, for in fact, Ila didn't even
exist then.
> >
> They had learnt Esperanto and Ido and together with German, French and
Latin
> that they certainly had "school knowledge" of, helped them to very
easily
> understand Occidental. Words like _pri_ and _ye_ are as I see it
rather
> Esperantisms, even if "pri" originally comes from Greek and _ye_
probably is a
> Russian word, even though one could find some "impressionist" linkage
to
> German _je_ (that is my scientifically unfounded hunch).
 
So, you have just proved, again, that everyone, even today, should be
able to read and understand
Occidental. Thank you for the further proof. For, we all here,
basically, have the same background of those folks who learned
Occidental then. The difference is two
fold, I think today people are more mentally lazy than then, and
the same prejudiced outlook is still there be folks who have spent time
learning other IAL's before
gaining any knowledge of Occidental.
 
> > > He had reached a threshold and suddenly
> > > everything was much easier. Or he had found better teaching
material.
> [kut]
>
> >This flies in the face of the arguments that Occidental is difficult,
etc.
> used today.
>
> I have no memory of having said that Occidental is difficult, ''cause
it
> isn't. Occidental is easy. I have said, and I can repeat that as many
times as
> Bob or anyone else wishes to hear it, that it has an unnecessary
eclectic
> vocabulary, which I think it has. But this can - as Bob has said
himself on
> some occations - be mended.
 
I have to consider your opinion, versus the multiple numbers who learned
Occidental without even the
materials you had available to you, even from your own language
stock, and they saw no such argument against Occidental. i.e. about the
vocabulary being eclectic.
You also think certain methods are "boring" and have presented me with
other personal preferences that you have. I respect those personal
opinions, but one or two such
opinions have to be weighed against the experience of 90+ years where
the majority had no such problems with the language.
 
> Everyone who thinks Occidental is easier than Interlingua should of
course
> learn Occidental. It may wery well be that there is something I have
> overlooked that the Occidentalists did see, and if that furthers
someone's way
> to the International language, so much the better.
>
> I would really encourage everybody to try to learn some auxiliary
languages
> and then see which works the best. I think I shall take up the
Occidental
> studies again. Next message will be in Occidental!
 
Well, I am glad to hear that. However, like we say in the lymphology
classes, "The more you do it the
better you feel, and the better you feel the more you do it." So,
be careful, Occidental can be catching. ;-)
 
> > And, this is why I and Charles could understand it right off the bat
when looking
> > at it seriously. Literally, no other IAL has ever been presented
this way to the
> > world, without grammar, vocabularies, etc. and become the force it
did, including
> > ILa which bagan with a full blown dictionary and grammar.  Only one
language ever
> > did this in the IAL field, and that was Occidental. This says
volumes about the
> > language. And, no attempt to excuse or explain away how easily
Charles or I picked
> > it up can deny the fact that only Occidental can and does do this.
The language
> > was designed to work this way and it does. Esperanto can't do it,
Ido can't do it, Ila can't do
it, Glosa can't, and none of the others can do it. Only Occidental,
> > and it is the only one with a track record that speaks for itself in
this.
> >
> This is not correct. My first incounters with Interlingua was just
that I read
> texts in in and understood. It goes without saying that I had to have
> dictionaries to be able to produce in the language myself. But this is
not
> what we were talking about. I had no difficulty in understanding
interlingua,
> both written and spoken, and I have heard both right in the beginning.
 
But, you did need the dictionary to produce it, which you admit above,
and it is what I was talking
about. No other language has ever done it to the extent Occidental
has, and there is no proof contrary to this, anywhere.
 
>
>
> > To deny Occidental's ease of aprehension, in order to support ILa or
any other
> > language that must be presented with a grammar and dictionary, is to
deny
> > thousands of actual cases of learning and usage since 1922. Those
thousands of
> > actual cases can't not be negated by one individual opinion of a
modern critic.
> > The facts are otherwise. Occidental is the easiest for the most
people. It is not
> > the easiest for some people. The facts stand on their own on this.
>
> Occidental is easy. It is as easy to me as Interlingua. It is perhaps
easier
> than Interlingua. But to deny the fact that a lot of Occidentalists
went over,
> defected, changed for Interlingua is like putting your head in the
sand as if
> you were an ostrich.
 
No one has ever denied that. What I have said was, "they were wrong to
do so" and to follow the likes
of Berger, etc. And, part of the proof is, those who are still
active ILaists have so far refused to furnish their old Occidental
materials for fear that it will
prove Occidental better than ILa, because more people will have a
chance to see it and compare it with the ILa of today. > >
 
> > > It is very possible that when I was learning Interlingua and
reading a lot of
> > > material in Occidental as well, this contributed to my learning
Interlingua
> > > faster. The fact that I did not practise writing occidental can
account for
> > > the fact that I did not learn it.
> >
> > Could be, for thousands of others did it quite easily without
dictionary and
> > grammar. Remember, you learned ILa with a grammar and dictionary at
hand.
>
> No, I learned it from reading Revista de Interlingua and writing to a
friend
> in it.
 
But, you just said above you needed a dictionary to produce it. That is
part of the learning process,
and that is exactly what I was and am talking about.
 
> That is
> > a different thing. Although I'm sure some can do it, how many do you
think learn
> > ILa without the lessons on the web, and the grammar and dictionaries
today.
>
> I have not the slightest idea. You can do it, provided that the texts
you are
> reading are good and if you are interested in the contents.
>
> >Then,
> > compare that with the early Occidentalists who 100% learned without
such tools.
> > Today, many deceive themselves that their language is easier than
Occ because they
> > have learned with tools that Occ does not need. But, put away the
dictionaries and
> > grammars and ask people to learn your leanguages without them, then
we'll have a
> > real and fair comparison of how Occidental is constructed
differently than the
> > others, and how easily it is learned *without* such tools versus how
other are
> > learned *with* such tools. In reality, this is a magnitude of
difference and
> > speaks very well for Occidental.
>
> They had already learnt the other international languages, used at
that time.
 
The same is true today, some people know the same other international
language. Always looking for an
explanation outside of the real reason, Kjell. The simple fact is,
Occidental is made of  international words, and it has nothing to do at
all with knowing another IAL.
Anyone who knew their own language in those days, could read,
understand and write it. So, today we should have the same results.
Except for the comments I made
above about why the modern mind has trouble learning anything today.
And, the main difference is this. People in those days knew their own
language. Today, most adults
can't even read their own language much less Shakespeare.
 
> What I liked with Interlingua and what also could be said about
occidental is
> that it doesn't matter how many persons can speak the languages. There
are
> anyway a lot of people who can understand them. I see this
demonstrated time
> after time where I am.
>
> So let's learn Occidental if we prefere it and Interlingua if that is
more to
> our liking.
>
> Lass noi apprender occidental si to es lu que noi prefere e
interlingua si
> isto es lo que nos prefere!
>
> Lu plus important es que noi apprende lingues quels ne solo noi self
comprende.
>
> Lo plus importante es que nos apprende linguas le quales non solo nos
ipse
> comprende.
>
> (I don't think I need to translate this!)
 
No, and I don't believe we need to learn two such languages. Occidental
works best for all.
Interlingua works in its selected area and is a nice sounding and
looking
sud-romance language, but it is not an IAL in the sense that Occidental
is. And, if Occidental isn't,
then there is no need for you to learn it since you already have
Interlingua. If Interlingua does its job, as you claim, then it is a
waste of time to concentrate on
two languages. Much less learning Esp, Ido, Glosa, etc. I suggest a
person learn and master one, but not a dozen languages that are supposed
to do the same job. They
either do the job they were designed to do, or they don't. I contend
that Occidental does it best for the most people. It has nothing to do
with the individual faults,
per se, of each language. It has to do with the intended design. And,
only Occidental has this kind of design that works easiest for the
majority of people.
 
Esperanto is best for those who like congresses, and writing to people
in other parts of the world to
tell them they are going to visit, and need someone to talk to.
Ido is basically the same.
Glosa is for those with Greek background, and some Latin with a simple
grammar to learn to
communicate with other Glosaists.
Interlingua is for those who like the idea of a latinized south romance
looking and sounding language
that is basically limited to at site within that sphere.
Occidental is for a much wider immediate circle than the above languages
put together, with built in
mechanisms to make it amenable to certain changes when, and if, the
Oriental and other parts of the world decide to learn it after it
becomes prominent in the west.
 
Cordialmen,
Bob, x+O~
 
P.S. I'm looking forward to your becoming a full fledged Occidentalist,
assuming you begin again to
write and use the langauge, for that is where such action will lead
you. Besides, when we finally become the team we are going to become,
Occidental will become an
unstoppable force multiplying by leaps and bounds. Of course, you know
that has already started, and your help would be extremely valuable, as
would other auxlangers if
they could get past certain "hangups". ;--)))

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May 2008, Week 5
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April 2008, Week 5
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March 2008, Week 5
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January 2008, Week 5
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January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
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December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
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November 2007, Week 3
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September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
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April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
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February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
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January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
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October 2006, Week 3
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June 2006, Week 5
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June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
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May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
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February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
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November 2004, Week 5
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November 2004, Week 3
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October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
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April 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 5
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March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
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February 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
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January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
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July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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March 2003, Week 1
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January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 3
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
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December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
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November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
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October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
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March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 1
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
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October 2001, Week 1
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April 2001, Week 5
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April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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April 1998, Week 5
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February 1998, Week 1
January 1998, Week 5
January 1998, Week 4
January 1998, Week 3
January 1998, Week 2
January 1998, Week 1
December 1997, Week 5
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February 1997, Week 1

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