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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 4

CONLANG June 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: To be

From:

R A Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 24 Jun 2013 14:23:22 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (241 lines)

On 23/06/2013 23:30, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> On Jun 23, 2013, at 2:28 PM, R A Brown wrote: [snip]
>>
>> Or more strictly _perfect_ participles, as they denote
>> perfect aspect.  If the verb is intransitive such
>> participles are always _active_.
>
> You know, I did some thinking after asking my question,
> and came up with some hypotheses about the appearance of
> a "passive" perfect participle for ESSE. Digression
> time:
>
> The reasoning for my question was that a passive perfect
> participle formed from ESSE in CL or early VL wouldn't
> make sense, since it would mean something like *"a been
> thing".

This is true of Classical Latin.  Normally the perfect
participle had a passive meaning.  But it is not quite so
straight forward in that:
- the perfect participle of deponent verbs was always active.
- some non-deponent intransitive verbs are found also with
_active_ perfect participles, e.g. cēnāre "to dine" -->
cēnātus = "having dined."
- other (i.e. most) intransitive verbs could be with
_impersonal passive_ forms, e.g. ventum est = "they have
come, people have come, etc."

So, in theory, an active perfect participle of 'esse' could
have existed, but one is not attested.  The verb also lacked
a present participle in Classical Latin, though, according
to Priscan, Caesar used 'ēns' (not actually attested in any
extant works by Caesar).  In Late Latin we find both 'ens'
and 'essens' being used as present participles (vowel length
no longer phonemic)

Vulgar Latin, however, is a whole different beast   :)

It is apparent that:
- deponents were replaced by non-deponent forms but. if
intransitive, retained their active perfect participles.
- forms like cēnātus were no longer isolated peculiarities.
All verbs (with possible exception of "to be") now had
perfect participles - active if the verb was intransitive,
passive if transitive.
- the impersonal passive did not survive.

This meant that in Vulgar Latin the Classical "perfect
tense" came to be used as a simple past perfective (i.e.
Greek 'aorist'; English 'simple past'); and new perfect
forms developed thus:
- INTRANSITIVE VERB: "to be" plus perfect active participle,
agreeing with the subject; e.g.  *sum ventus = I have come
(literally: I-am having-come; cf. Esperanto "mi estas
venita", earlier English "I am come").
- TRANSITIVE VERB: "to have" plus perfect passive
participle, agreeing with the direct object;, e.g. *habeo
puellam visam = "I have seen the girl" (lit. I-have the-girl
having-been-seen).

The latter construction is found as early as Plautus (late
3rd, early 2nd cent BC).  In one of his plays we find, e.g.
_hāsce aedīs condūctās habet_ meaning little more than "he
has hired this house" (_aedes_ is a feminine plural word
with singular meaning: "building, temple, house).

Clearly this construction gained currency in the Vulgar
Latin of the late Republic and was well established by
imperial times.

[snip]
>
> *HABEO VISUM PASSARUM "I have a seen bird," i.e. "I have
> a bird which has been seen"; the experiencer of the
> seeing being 1sg by implication, > "I have seen a bird"

Correct and, as I note above, well attested.

> *HABEO COMEDITUM "I have an eaten thing", i.e. "I have a
> thing which has been eaten" > I have eaten

Yep - if what was eaten was something masculine or neuter  ;)

But if the verb was intransitive you would have "to be" with
perfect _active_ participle, e.g. *sum status "I have stood."

> But now I don't think that's necessarily a true premise;
>  it's quite possible (and there might be documentary
> evidence to confirm or deny this) that the HABEO + PPP
> construction was already in existence

It was.

> when people realized they needed a way to use ESSE with
> it.

But that is incorrect.  The perfect of intransitive verbs
was colloquially formed with *ESSERE and perfect _active_
participle. They would have felt a need to create a perfect
active participle to "to be"; in Italy and Gaul they fell
back on using VL *status' = "having stood" ; in the Iberian
peninsular they developed a distinctive form, presumably
*essítus.   Romanian _fost_ suggest a form *fustum, though
it may well be a later analogical development with Romanian

[snip]
>
> Can STARE function transitively?

Nope.  It was always intransitive.  The related word SISTER
was the transitive one.

I[snip]
>
> I think I've seen a hypothesis that Span. _ser_ comes
> from SEDERE. There were at least formerly some other
> forms of the paradigm that came from SEDERE, but they
> don't spring to mind right now (possibly the present
> subjunctive).

You may be correct.  Or it could be a confusion *essere and
sedēre.  Some parts of the modern Spanish verb "to be" are
from sedēre.

>>
>>> Nor do I know the origin of French etre.
>>
>> être <-- estre <-- *essre <-- *essere
>
> I've read that the /t/ in this one was due to
> contamination by STARE; but I suppose it's reasonable
> that it was epenthetic.

It's possible that it's both   ;)
=========================================================

On 24/06/2013 03:04, Roger Mills wrote:
[snip]
>
> RM I suspected that might be the case in French. Is a VL
> essere attested?

Not that I aware of - unless you count early Italian   ;)
=====================================================

On 24/06/2013 04:15, Douglas Koller wrote:
[snip]
>
>> *HABEO VISUM PASSARUM "I have a seen bird," i.e. "I
>> have a bird which has been seen"; the experiencer of
>> the seeing being 1sg by implication, > "I have seen a
>> bird"
>
> If you move "passarem" before the participle (ie: "Habeo
> passarem visum." or "Passarem habeo visum."), and change
> the object to something feminine (ie: "Habeo puellam
> visam."), you see the accord of PPP with preceding
> direct object which soldiers on in modern French and
> Italian:

Which _always_ happened in Latin, whatever the word order.

> Je l'ai vu (sth. masc.)/Je l'ai vue (sth. fem.)
> le passereau que j'ai vu/la fille que j'ai vue
> L'ho visto/L'ho vista
> il passero che ho visto/la ragazza che ho vista

Yep - because in this order it still retains the earlier
Latin construction   :)

>
>> *HABEO COMEDITUM "I have an eaten thing", i.e. "I have
>> a thing which has been eaten" > I have eaten
>
> ?Habeo comesum?

Yes, *comeditum might be a Vulgar Latin term used in the
Iberian peninsular - tho _comido_ could be a later
analogical formation.  In the best Classical Latin _comesum_
the form used, but we do also come across _coméstum_ .

[snip]
>
> As you mention, swap out "habere" for "esse" (as was
> discussed earlier, using an oblique case with a copula
> in a language like this is echt verboten):

...and certainly would not happen in Latin
>
> ?Sum homo status./?Homo status sum.//?Sum femina
> stata./?Femina stata sum.

Not possible in Classical Latin.  But in VL there would have
been a perfect _active_ participle *status = "having stood".
  But *_homo status sum_ would mean something like: "I, a
man, have stood."

> In Italian, at least, has "essere" as the auxliary for
> "essere/stare":

..and also in VL.  The perfect construction was quite simply:
- INTRANSITIVE: *essere + perfect active participle,
agreeing with the subject.
- TRANSITIVE: _habere_ + perfect passive participle,
agreeing with the direct object.

[snip]

> Why French excludes "être" from its DR MRS VAN DER TRAMP
> verbs as the sole hold-out, I have no idea.

Nor I - but analogy worked changes on the simple VL system.
  Modern English now uses "have" as the only perfect tense
auxiliary; so, I believe, does Portuguese.  Spanish likewise
now uses "haber" as the sole auxiliary, but it no longer
uses the verb in the sense of "to have."

[snip]
>
> (As you say, Spanish and Portuguese (?) laid waste to
> the whole avoir/être aux. distinction: Hé ido.)

Yep - just contemporary English has (except for the odd
archaism used in certain contexts, e.g. "I am come")

[snip]
>
> visum => visto (Italian/Spanish/Portuguese)  ?

Simple analogy with other participles ending (originally) in
-tum; cf. _comēsum ~ comēstum_ in Classical Latin.

-- 
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]

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April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
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August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
December 2003, Week 5
December 2003, Week 4
December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
January 2001, Week 2
January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
December 2000, Week 4
December 2000, Week 3
December 2000, Week 2
December 2000, Week 1
November 2000, Week 5
November 2000, Week 4
November 2000, Week 3
November 2000, Week 2
November 2000, Week 1
October 2000, Week 5
October 2000, Week 4
October 2000, Week 3
October 2000, Week 2
October 2000, Week 1
September 2000, Week 5
September 2000, Week 4
September 2000, Week 3
September 2000, Week 2
September 2000, Week 1
August 2000, Week 5
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August 2000, Week 3
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July 2000, Week 3
July 2000, Week 2
July 2000, Week 1
June 2000, Week 5
June 2000, Week 4
June 2000, Week 3
June 2000, Week 2
June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
October 1999, Week 4
October 1999, Week 3
October 1999, Week 2
October 1999, Week 1
September 1999, Week 5
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September 1999, Week 2
September 1999, Week 1
August 1999, Week 5
August 1999, Week 4
August 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 5
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July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 3
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February 1999, Week 5
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 5
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November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
October 1998, Week 5
October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
October 1998, Week 1
September 1998, Week 5
September 1998, Week 4
September 1998, Week 3

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