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CONLANG  June 2013, Week 4

CONLANG June 2013, Week 4

Subject:

Re: writing (almost) entirely in lower-case letters

From:

Joseph Rocca <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 26 Jun 2013 12:22:16 +0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

Okay, I now realised I'm way out of my league here, so please shut me down
if this is not the place for me - I'm building an online translator maker (
lingojam.com) and I was wondering whether the colang community would be
interested in something like this? At the moment I feel like it's a little
primitive for colang needs, but I'm super keen to add in anything that
people want.

Hopefully a few of you find it useful (or would do if it had a couple more
features) - would love to hear your thoughts :)

Cheers,
Joe


On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Aodhán Aannestad <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> And a further question ( :P ) - for people with IE-esque conlangs where
> case morphology is largely inalienable from nouns, are foreign names
> uninflectable or are they wedged somehow into the case system? (cf Latin
> vs. Ancient Greek - Latin tries to jam them in (hence 'Confucius',
> 'Gustavus', etc.), while Greek just leaves them alone (Ισραήλ and so on).)
>
>
> On 6/25/2013 9:02 PM, Zach Wellstood wrote:
>
>> Another question this brought to mind: in łaá siri, proper nouns are often
>> discernable because they are uninflected noun roots, and if they refer to
>> a
>> person, usually occur with an honorific of some form. In others' conlangs,
>> are names and proper nouns unique in some way that makes them apparent in
>> a
>> text (besides capitalization)?
>> On Jun 26, 2013 9:38 AM, "Padraic Brown" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>  From: George Corley
>>>> The question is, do you keep to the conventions in order to make the
>>>> readers more comfortable, or do you break them for your own
>>>> satisfaction.
>>>> The degree to which it impedes readability isn't that important, you
>>>>
>>> still
>>>
>>>> have a choice, and there are reasons to make either choice. As I have
>>>>
>>> said
>>>
>>>> before, by putting a romanization to a conlang that is not "natively"
>>>> written in the Roman alphabet, you are already imposing alien
>>>> conventions
>>>> on it. There is therefore no reason do dismiss the graphical conventions
>>>>
>>> of
>>>
>>>> the Roman alphabet other than aesthetic. And since there is no arguing
>>>> taste, then we really should not be freaking arguing over which choice
>>>> is
>>>> better.
>>>>
>>> I agreed earlier that, yes, the mere act of writing a conlang in a
>>> non-native
>>> script is a form of alien imposition, and indeed it may well be one of
>>> many
>>> such impositions. But on rethinking, it's really not an imposition on the
>>> language itself in any way shape or form. Just because I choose to write
>>> Talarian texts here in a romanisation scheme -- and really, what
>>> alternative
>>> do I have?? -- doesn't change anything whatsoever about the language or
>>> its script. The only thing the romanisation does for a conlang is to
>>> facilitate
>>> discussion: it's easy for me to write in romanised conlang, it's easier
>>> for
>>> you to read, it's easier for us to talk about it than if I just say "look
>>> here:
>>> http://bethisad.com/world/**currency/currency.htm<http://bethisad.com/world/currency/currency.htm>and have fun sorting out
>>> all
>>> the funny writing!"
>>>
>>>
>>>  From: H. S. Teoh <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>> It's this informal feel that I wanted to capture when I decided that
>>>> Tatari Faran's romanization will be all lowercase. The san faran are the
>>>> easy-going type, and don't really care too much about such nitpicky
>>>> details, and I thought it would be fitting to convey this in the
>>>> romanization of their language.
>>>>
>>> And therein lies the only correct answer to the whole question of to
>>> capitalise or to not capitalise a conlang's romanisation, namely, we do
>>> that which we as individuals decide is best for the conlang at hand and
>>> for the Purpose to which we set the transliteration scheme. You choose
>>> noncapitalisation because you feel that in some way it captures the
>>> informality of the speakers of the conlang. I choose noncapitalisation
>>> (at times) to emulate the native script's caselessness. Others have said
>>> that they choose capitalisation for familiarity sake and for ease of
>>> reading.
>>> All these are valid reasons for the choices we make.
>>>
>>>    If you want to really mess things up, you could remove all punctuation
>>>>>   as well. THAT would affect readability for me. I think the
>>>>> punctuation
>>>>>   is more important in this respect than capitalization, so I don't
>>>>> know
>>>>>   why this is such a huge gripe! Convention is only convention, it
>>>>>   doesn't mean it's how everything needs to be done.
>>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Punctuation is definitely more important than capitalization.
>>>>
>>> And yet the ancients got along pretty well with neither. Anyone who works
>>> with ancient mss stìll has to deal with pages of writing that may or may
>>> not
>>> be capitalised, have punctuation or even spacing between words. It didn't
>>> seem to bother the ancients, and I guess one gets used to it!
>>>
>>>  And while capitalization is only convention, I'd argue that for
>>>> *English*, it's preferable.
>>>>
>>> Well, for *English* (or indeed French or German etc), it's the Rules.
>>> It's
>>> part
>>> that set of conventions by which we all agree to sensibly communicate
>>> with
>>> each other. As with any rule, it can be bent, but the more we bend these
>>> rules, the harder it is to effectively communicate.
>>>
>>>  But when it comes to *conlangs*, I think
>>>> it's needlessly nitpicky to insist on English-style capitalization. I
>>>> mean, even German uses its own capitalization conventions, and it also
>>>> uses the Latin script, so why the insistence on English-centric bias?
>>>>
>>> Indeed. This is why I first asked "what counts as traditional" way back
>>> when the discussion first started. Whose rules are we supposed to use,
>>> and why do we even need to follow ány real language's rules when it
>>> comes to romanising a conlang?
>>>
>>>  Reading *any* foreign language (conlang or not) requires some initial
>>>> effort to learn the writing anyway, be it romanization or native script.
>>>>
>>> Yes. And I think this is really why we all have chosen the former here
>>> on list. Sure, we sometimes offer links to native script images and we
>>> might send Christmas cards using native script, but for the most part
>>> our experience of reading each others' languages is in romanisation.
>>> We do it that way to reduce the amount of effort required of the
>>> other person to get what we're doing.
>>>
>>>  One can hardly expect to fairly evaluate a conlang if one is unwilling
>>>> to put the effort into learning the conventions the author chose to
>>>> adopt.  Nitpicking on capitalization conventions in lieu of actually
>>>> learning how the conlang works seems to me to be a case of straining out
>>>> the gnat and swallowing the camel.
>>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>> Padraic
>>>
>>>  T
>>>>
>>>

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