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CONLANG  November 2019, Week 2

CONLANG November 2019, Week 2

Subject:

Re: The language of the Trolls (help)

From:

Aidan Aannestad <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 10 Nov 2019 15:44:41 -0600

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (97 lines)

It sounds like you (George) are running up against the fundamental 
difficulty with philosophical languages' vocabulary. When you try to 
start with a highly restricted set of basic lexical items and just 
derive everything else, you end up with

- really long words for concepts that are common but not semantically basic
- very similar words for concepts in the same semantic domain

I tried to do one of these a decade ago - not because I wanted to make 
some philosophical statement; more just that I wanted my vocabulary to 
automatically generate itself so I didn't have to think about it! - and 
discovered that in actual practice it ends up being extremely unwieldy.

You might be able to do it in a way that's good enough for your purposes 
given the right set of parameters, though! Depends on what 'good enough' 
means for you (^^)

On 2019/11/10 6:16, BPJ wrote:
> I'm mostly worried how they'd make do with only 64 basic concepts plus
> whatever vowel slots there may be! It would be very hard to speak about
> anything you haven't encountered before, unless you use monster
> circumlocutions/compounds or introduce new phonemes. I'm sure you *have*
> thought about that, so I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts are. I
> have done conlangs with very restricted phonologies and restrictive
> morphologies but none where *both* were *that* restricted.
>
> I did a lang where *all* "semantemes" were expressed by triconsonantal
> roots and *all* "grammatemes" by vowel patterns in my green youth but it
> had at least a dozen consonants (I don't remember exactly) and five vowels,
> yet I fairly soon ran out of usable vowel patterns, so that I had to move
> the goal posts as to which concepts were "semantic" and which were
> "grammatical".
>
> Kijieb has only three vowels and fifteen consonants (sixteen if you count a
> null onset as a glottal stop, but it occurs almost exclusively word
> initially) and a rather restrictive syllable structure
> (s)(C)({r,w})(y)V(N)({r,s,t}) where it makes sense to see the onset (y)
> slot as palatalization at least in initial clusters, and where Cw in
> initial clusters occurs mostly with {k,g,ŋ} in the C slot. Roots are almost
> exclusively (C+)VC+, with a constraint against the (y) slot being filled in
> both C+, and it's rare for both C+ to be more than CC and for the "core" C
> in both C+ to be same. Words are minimally (C+)VC+V so a root must usually
> take a more or less bleeched -(R)V suffix to form a word or enter
> compounds. There are a small number of C+V roots, almost all pronominal or
> numeral which must reduplicate to form a word, and exactly three V "roots"
> which all are deictic, must compound with other roots and practically act
> like stressed prefixes, like _i-na_ 'this', _a-na_ 'that', _i-pyat_
> 'here?', _u-pyat_ 'over there?'. Inflection and derivation are exclusively
> by suffixation, unless you count some stale C(V)- prefixes which mostly
> have been obscured by sound changes and semantic bleaching (basically just
> the originallay causative _*s(V)-_ and the originally transitivizing
> _*t(V)-_ prefix are somewhat visible, with both becoming _s-_ before an
> obstruent and both _*s-s-_ and _*t-s-_ becoming _st-_ — native speakers
> would be hard pressed to see that _stan-, snan-_ and _kran-_ are all
> derivatives of _tan-_ with _*s-, *n-, *k-_ respectively). Even so I tend to
> end up with Really Long Words or lots of C clusters, the latter of which
> doesn't feel natural. Words like _tyus(t)rya_ or _skwasna_ aren't exactly
> unusual. Their or their near conates' descendants end up like _sohr_ or
> _čöṣa_ or _þöst(o)l_ and _eskós(a)n_ or _hnw̃ãsã_ or _skwarn_ (in three
> different languages) respectively. I guess that's where you end up when you
> were inspired by Finnish, Quenya, Avestan and (written) Tibetan!
>
>
>
> Den lör 9 nov. 2019 23:34George Corley <[log in to unmask]> skrev:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Haven't been on the mailing list in a long time, but felt like a nice place
>> to ask for some advice and critique. I have a newish sketch of an engelangy
>> artlang (the language of some blind stone creatures I'm calling "trolls"
>> with alien, highly logical minds). It's based on a very small number of
>> biconsonantal roots and lots of derivations on vowels. You can see what I
>> have of the lexicon here
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q6YMNINA0XQU4j-cremfoaWTrKF3cyecXkCAec9lb5g/edit?usp=sharing
>> and phonology and writing system here
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15BiVvXIrzaX34Spz9poFC4QHLfu-TdtzzSj-wNMkZFc/edit?usp=sharing
>> .
>>
>> A big thing I am trying here is to use a very minimalist phonology and
>> exhaust all possible combinations for roots. Biconsonantal roots can be
>> reversed for their opposites, and I have made a special class for the
>> double roots (since they can't be reversed) for function words.
>>
>> Inevitably, however, I run into some holes -- not really sure what to do
>> with the eighth double root. I do also have a concern if my (deliberately
>> unnatural) trick of inversion for opposites leaves me with too few concepts
>> -- but I think with compounding it will work out.
>>
>> What do people think? It is quite weird from me.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> George
>>

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