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CONLANG  September 2011, Week 4

CONLANG September 2011, Week 4

Subject:

Re: NATLANG: The edge of human language syntax complexity

From:

Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:13:19 -0300

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (57 lines)

I forgot to send the rest of the e-mail

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hallo conlangers,
>
> When I started my master studies I had a class of Computational Linguistics
> and liked it so much.
> The most interesting part for me was how complex a language syntax can get.
>
> There I studied how Stuart M. Shieber, studying Züritüütsch (Zurich dialect
> of Swiss German), discovered in 1985 that the human language syntax was not
> context free. The main insight is that Züritüütsch is SOV, has both
> accusative and dative cases, words in dative case must come before the ones
> in accusative, and verbs follow an order at the end of the sentence like in
> Dutch and not like in German.
>
> The example he used was a subordinated clause:
> "... mer d'chind em Hans es huus haend wele laa hälfe aastriiche"
> "... we the children-ACC Hans-DAT the house-ACC have wanted let help paint"
> ... we have wanted to let the children help Hans paint the house
>
>
> Another attempt to prove human languages not to have a context free syntax
> was coined by Alexis Manaster Ramer in 1987. He showed that when one wants
> to reuse the same verb complements in the order they appear in another
> sentence, simply the verbs must be said, as the verb complements are already
> known.
>
> Below is an example of a sentence:
> ik geloof dat ik Piet haar zag laten leren vallen en zag laten leren
> proberen te helpen vertrowen te hebben.
> Which means, I believe that I saw Piet making (=letting) her learn to fall
> and saw (him) make (=let) (her) try to help (her) to have faith.
>
>
Another example:
(Ik las...) dat Jan Piet Marie hoorde uitnogen en zag kussen.
(I read...) that Jan heard Piet invite Marie and saw [him] kiss [her].


I would like to know if someone from the Netherlands-Germany border or in
the Mitteldeutsch region speaks a language that possess both accusative and
dative cases, and that also has this verb structure present in Dutch.
So, I would be able to know if there is any language with a structure like
this:
"... Subj Compl-Dat Compl-Acc Verb-Dative.Regency Verb-Acc.Regency and (or
other conjunction) Verb-Dative.Regency Verb-Acc.Regency and (or other
conjunction) Verb-Dative.Regency Verb-Acc.Regency and so on.


BTW, has someone from this list created a language with some kind of
mathematically/grammatically implausible syntax structure?

Hugo Cesar

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