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CONLANG  January 2000, Week 4

CONLANG January 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: /s/ -> /h/ [was: Re: Betreft: Re: k(w)->p]

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:06:28 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (72 lines)

At 11:48 am +0000 28/1/00, yl-ruil wrote:
>From: Raymond Brown
[....]
>> >There is no evidence for an intermediate voiced stage in the
>> >alternation between /s/ and /h/. In fact, such a step would make
>> >the change less likely. What /s/ and /h/ have in common is the
>> >spreading of the vocal folds during articulation--in fact,
>> >that's all an /h/ is; spread vocal folds.
>>
>> Absolutely - both sounds are voicless fricatives.
>
>Ooops, my mistake. I wasn't actually thinking of the strongly voiced
>'buzzed' z in english, but maybe more of an apical sound. H is *not* a
>voiceless fricative, it's a voiceless glottal approximant.

This looks like one of those annoying silly semantic quibbles, that
bedevils this list from time to time.

Well, the IPA list the darn thing as a *voiceless fricative*, and altho
they are not infallible, I'm inclined give some consideration to them.

But let's see:
FRICATIVE - a sound made when two organs come so close together the air
between them produces audible friction; there is no complete closure, as is
the case when a plosive is articulated, but _stricture_.
GLOTTAL  - is a sound made in the larynx by closing or constricting the
glottis (the aperture between the vocal cords); if the gottis is completely
closed, then the aubible release produces the glottal plosive or glottal
stop (it must necessarily be voiceless!); if it is constricted, the air
passing through produces audible friction, which may be voiceless as /h/ in
'hat' or voiced like the /h/ in Afrikaans.

APPROXIMANT - term used by some phoneticians to describe what others would
term _frictionless_ continuants, i.e. [w], [j], [r\], [l] and all vowels.
There is a degree of narrowing involved, but it is less than that of
fricatives and does not cause audible friction.

That, I believe, is the common understanding of these terms. It is what
I've understood for 40 years or so.  In that analysis it simply does not
make sense to talk about voiceless approximants - as soon as these souns
are devoiced there is friction.

I am well aware that there are other analyses.  One such analysis would
regard pronunciations such the Scots pronunciation of 'wh' as voiceless
approximants; this analysis regards, e.g. the [h] in [h&t] as the voiceless
equivalent of [&], and the [h] in [hIt] as the voiceless equivalent of [I],
etc.  In such an analysis, of course, there are as many aitches as vowels,
each being, so to speak, a voiceless vowel, i.e. voiceless approximant.

Tho I do not agree with the analysis in the last sentence, I am not going
to tell someone who holds to it that it is *not* so.

It is, maybe, a little over the top to say that all those phoneticians/
phonologists who think [h] is a glottal fricative (with both voiceless &
voiced varieties) have definitely got it wrong?

Since (in the
>indo-european languages anyway) voiced sound are more readily lost (eg Q -->
>0), it seemed more logical to me that a voiced sound would be weakened
>rather than a voiceless one.

But then some of us don't see /s/ --> /h/ as a weakening.

Ray.


=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

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