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AUXLANG  March 2000, Week 5

AUXLANG March 2000, Week 5

Subject:

Re: 3 conjugations?

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 30 Mar 2000 12:05:51 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (103 lines)

maf wrote:

> Ken Caviness wrote:
>
> > (respondante al Krisburdo)
> > Quite right.  Incidentally, it's clearly the same "scare tactics" when opponents
> > of Esperanto talk about Esperanto's accusative case, makes us remember studying
> > case of nouns in Latin or Greek or German or Russian (or whatever), when in
> > actuality tacking an "-n" on the object in an Esperanto sentence is trivially
> > simple.
>
> When one remembers to do it. It's remembering to do it all the time that's hard.

I agree, to a certain extent.  In studying _any_ language as an adult, I have found that
I keep forgetting to do something or other: concentrating on one rule I forget (for the
moment) to apply another one.  That's an early stage of the process, before I've
assimilated and "automated" most of the rules.

The process is _much_ harder and longer for me if there are (1) many rules and/or (2)
many exceptions (or "sub-rules").  I think, for instance, of the long-running discussion
I've had with James Chandler on the use of the accusative in Esperanto and Ido.  He
maintains that it's easier to only add the accusative marker -N in cases where the
meaning of the sentence is otherwise ambiguous (*) and requires clarification.
(Incidentally, this is the system adopted in the planlingvo Ido:  use
Subject-Verb-Object order normally and skip the -n ending on the object, but if you
change the order then you must add the -n marker back in.)  For me, such "optional" or
special case rules are far more difficult to apply correctly than just learning once and
for all that "direct objects always take -N".  It also seems somehow "more fair" to me
to have a simple, always-applicable rule (no matter if it may seem odd or "foreign" to
me) than to multiply rules or exceptions, to make things easier (more "natural") for a
certain group of people.  Similarly I prefer building words from a smaller number of
fragments (which is something that anyone who has learned the basic vocabulary can do)
to importing new words from other languages (which is easy only for those who already
speak those other languages).

> I think Eo's accusative would be a bit simpler if it were the default object case
> ofr prepositions (and the _lack_ of the -n indicated 'motion towards'). I'm not
> suggesting that people try this, just that it would make a bit more linguistic sense
> if he had thought of it.

Interesting.  I lack the linguistic sense to see why one is better than the other.  From
my point of view it's just something to learn and then practice applying, so equal in
effort.

> The weird mix/and/match approach Zhof took 'verbs govern the accusative and
> prepositions govern the nominative is,

I'm not quite sure if this is a correct assessment.  Some verbs are associated with a
direct object, others not.  It's not even necessary for the sentence to explicitly
contain a verb, if a word is the direct "object of the action" it takes the -n in
Esperanto.  For some reason Zamenhof decided that as a default, nouns following
prepositions would not take the -n ending, which left it free to indicate motion in this
case.  (Incidentally, I quite agree that two uses are more complicated to apply than
one, but it doesn't seem a great burden.)

> lau mi(n), the major reasons so many speakers
> omit it so often (as was recently confirmed for me by a long-time Eo speaker with
> lots of experience in both Poland and an Asian country - ghi told me that accusative
> dropping is not the slightest bit abnormal in either country, which I can confirm in
> Poland as can Kjell). An Italian speaker told me the same thing about club-level
> usage in Italy (when they don't just use Italian that is).

I originally thought that speakers of a language without a certain feature would have
the most difficulty learning a language with that feature, but this doesn't seem to be
necessarily true.  I've noticed that German-speakers sometimes make
nominative/accusative mistakes in Esperanto, although at least masculine nouns in German
take different articles and/or endings for the nominative and accusative also.  But as
in all languages, most mistakes are made by beginners and learners who just haven't
spent the time or effort to progress beyond a basic level.  Such people are frequently
word-for-word translating anyway.  Anything different will cause us to stumble until we
practice it a bit.  But we can assimilate simple rules more quickly than complicated
rules with exceptions.

Incidentally, I doubt if different simple rules would result in fewer mistakes in this
situation.  The important thing is that the rules be simple and then learners can
practice until it's all second nature.

> Again, I'm not proposing a 'reform' of Esperanto omitting the accusative case. I'm
> suggesting that the official standards of the language should be revised in
> accordance with prevailing usage, which at ground level, far removed from the
> rarified fluent levels inhabited by you and Donchjo, accusatives appear sporadically
> despire speakers' best intentions.

I would be against making a rule "optional", since that introduces more confusion than
help  It is certainly true that the -n could be dropped entirely from Esperanto, but
only at the expense of a significant portion of Esperanto's relatively free word order,
which many people view as one of the language's strengths (allowing greater
"internationality").  There's a price for everything.

Amike,
Ken

--
To get paid for your web-surfing time, click here:

          <http://www.southern.edu/~chansen/EarnNSurf.html>

  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
  | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO = Lingvo internacia |
  | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Franšais/Deutsch |
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*

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