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AUXLANG  April 2000, Week 3

AUXLANG April 2000, Week 3

Subject:

Re: -uj in Esp

From:

[log in to unmask]

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:57:35 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (183 lines)

On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:56:52 -0700, Acadon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I strongly agree with James Chandler.
>
>James Chandler wrote:
>> Chris rote:
>> >In principle I agree with you, but it's not 1880 anymore. It's very
late in
>> >the history of the IAL movement to tear everything down and start again.
>
>I have no sense that it is 'late in the history
>of the IAL movement'; it is still early. 99.99%
>of the world's population has never even heard
>of it.

True, but when I look at the IAL movement, I see a steady marginalisation
over the last 50-60 years. Hence my interest in Ia, which I see as more
promotable in an IAL-unfriendly environment.

>> >Eo compels the attention of anyone interested in
>> >IALs because of its relative success
>
>Success? Well it did help show that artificial languages
>can work, so that was major progress. But in terms of its
>program goals, Eo failed IMO over a hundred years ago when
>Dr. Z could not get his "pledges" signed.

I'm certainly no Esperantist, but one must admit that they have generated a
lot of activity over the years, magnitudes more than any other IAL, and
have demonstrated staying power. Think of the situation in the 1930s: Eo
clearly dominant, but Ia, Occ., Nov., LsF, and Ido offering strong
competition, and interesting projects like Basic English and Interglossa
cropping up regularly - and being taken seriously. By the 1980s, Eo stood
virtually alone, with Ia and Ido surviving as remnants (they've improved a
lot since then).

In absolute terms Eo has been a failure, though Raumism and Raumist-style
arguments may attempt to move the goalposts to make it an absolute success.
But its real accomplishments are undeniable, and it seems to me that E-ists
have done some good in the world in their way. Among IALs, only
Blissymbolics has done more.

>> > and, more importantly, because of the resources at its disposal.
>
>Trivial. There are ten-thousand educational
>institutions, information-based foundations
>and enterprises in this world with more resources,
>people, and moxie than the Eo momement.

Undoubtedly, but these resources aren't at the disposal of IAL-ers.
Consider this the central point of my post: There are enough E-ists in the
world that the Eo movement can undertake many initiatives. It can even
afford some failures and squandering of resources and still make progress.
Even the Ia movement is large enough to edge forward. Indeed, I'd say they
get more bang for the buck than the E-ists.

But I'd say that Ia - or perhaps Ido - is close to the bottom of the range
at which a movement can mount an effective promotional effort. It took
*decades* for Ia to get a decent set of dictionaries out for all of the
major Western languages - many minor European and all extra-European
languages remain untouched. The grammars and training material are
insufficient, even in English. There is enough reasonably interesting
literature that a learner can develop reading fluency - but there's not
much choice. In short, its accumulated resources are still meagre, even
after decades.

In face of this, the idea that someone can build up a new language movement
from zero strikes me as overly optimistic. Gode said that designing an IAL
was a weekend's work, but promoting one took a lifetime.

In my view, if one is sufficient convinced of the reasonableness of Eo's
goals (universalist, utopian) one should hold one's nose and support it -
and try to work for change, althouhg change seems unnaturally difficult for
the E-istas. If like me, you can't accept the E-ist vision, then something
like Ia may make sense. An alternative Ia (i.e., drawing on Ia dictionaries
but modifying grammar and morphology) is thinkable, and might obtain some
grudging support from the Ia community (or at least not outright hostility).

That's what I think. I may just be insufficiently optimistic.

>> >Despite 'kiuj', '-ajn', C^, 'edzo', and a number of other things that
>> >should never have seen the light of day.
>
>But are NEVER going to be abandoned by the
>true-believers.

Agreed. But a really successful Eo (ie. in which users rather than devotees
called the tune) might drop '-ajn' and C^. There's nothing really wrong
with 'edzo', although it was a very strange choice.

>> This is where people like me and, it should be mentioned, Bruce Gilson,
>> would strongly disagree with your approach.

Bruce makes a good case for his approach - but where is Novial 98 today? A
handful of enthusiasts were unable to relaunch it. Bob Petry has made more
progress with Occ., but how many of us have his time and energy? Besides, I
don't predict that he will ultimately succeed.

>Count me in, James.
>
>> Altho i admit we have to take
>> into account what has been proposed up till now, and especially what has
>> enjoyed some degree of popularity and use (Esp, Ido, Ia etc.), i dont see
>> any reason to be bound by the decisions of former language designers like
>> Zamenhof, or even more expert ones like Jespersen.
>
>I think highly of Dr. Z and Dr. J. The latter was
>by far the better informed, of course. But he was
>preoccupied with working on English and general
>Linguistics, and did not put enough time into his
>IAL projects. This led him to support and even to
>issue his own systems that he later realized (in
>his wisdom and with his modesty) were poorly
>thought out in some respects.
>
>Then came WWII, during which he died.
>We still miss him.

It wasn't a premature death, was it? One could say that Gode and Zamenhof
both died prematurely (early 60s and late 50s, I think), but I thought J.
was over 80.

>> It may not be 1880 any more, and that may mean that the IAL movement has
>> lost some of its innocence and naivety; but with fifty years having
passed
>> since the last heyday of the movement (the publishing of Interglossa and
>> Interlingua were the last real milestones in its history),
>
>Interesting comment. I'm not sure that I'd put
>Interglossa that high. Nor that I would ignore
>more recent efforts like Loglan and Lojban.
>
>> we are also
>> afforded a unique opportunity to take stock of what we currently have,
and
>> to start to distinguish what works from what doesnt, and collect up the
good
>> bits from each project.
>
>And maybe add some entirely new wrinkles. :-)
>
>>  On this view, it would seem like a wasted
>> opportunity to allow ourselves be tied down to what designers of the
past,
>> some of who didnt have the benefit of many past efforts to guide them in
>> their selections.   Kordiale, James Chandler
>
>It would IMO be outright stupidity -- like
>the Wright brothers thinking that they HAD to
>design their planes on the basis of sketches
>in Leonardo Da Vinci's notebooks -- or Boeing
>thinking that it must do its future designing
>on the basis of the drawings by the Wright
>brothers.

Well, contradicting (maybe) what I've said above, it would be interesting
if someone really put a creole/pidgin grammar to work with a previously
defined lexicon. Something with which you can translate editorials from the
_Frankfurter Allgemeine_ without taking days to reimplement every concept
and structure from the ground up, if you know what I mean.

Let me end with a quote:

[The] grammatical principles of the projected [international auxiliary]
language [are] evident. All analytic tongues trend toward one form of
grammar, the full development of which is not found in any one of them, but
may be learned from a careful scrutiny of such new products as the Creole
French of Martinique, the Negro Dutch of Surinam and the Lingua Franca of
the Mediterranean. [...] The exceeding value of the study of mixed
languages or jargons is now recognized by all true linguists. They offer
the material for the biology of the science, and to them we must turn if we
would forecast what will be the grammatical forms finally preferred by
speaking man when he has developed to its utmost the relations of thought
to its expression in sound."

That's from AIMS AND TRAITS OF A WORLD-LANGUAGE, by Daniel Garrison
Brinton, an address given in New York to the Nineteenth Century Club on 12
December 1888. It's time someone actually did this.

Cheers,

Chris

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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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December 1997, Week 5
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