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CONLANG  April 2000, Week 4

CONLANG April 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Morae (was: Re: Lurkers, poetic forms)

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 26 Apr 2000 04:45:29 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (152 lines)

At 12:08 pm -0400 25/4/00, Doug Ball wrote:
>-------------
>On morae:
>According to what I learned in my phonology/phonetics class this semester,
>the linguistic definition of a mora as W.S. Allen (from Ray's post) defines
>it:  a syllabic nucleus.

That's how W.S.Allen uses the term - to apply to the vocalic nucleus only.

>Within a syllable, onsets (the first consonant) is
>disregarded.  Thus a single short vowel is a light syllable and counts as
>one mora (CV, V= 1 mora).  I believe a syllabic sonorant is also one mora. A
>vowel followed by a consonant, or a long vowel are heavy and counts as two
>morae (CVC, CVV=2 morae).

Ah, now this is where confusion sets in.  Allen does _not_ use 'morae' in
this sense.

He refers to such syllables as "heavy" as opposed to light syllables (those
where nucleus is monomoraic and the coda is zero).  Thus a heavy syllable,
in Allen's termonology, is:
either (a) a syllable with a non-zero coda, irrespective of it nucleus;
or (b) a syllable with a bimoraic nucleus, irrespective of its coda!

IIRC Allen defends his usage in that if, e.g. both /men/ and /me:/ are
counted as bimoraic, then logically /me:n/ should be trimoraic; and that,
in terms of ancient Greek, is meaningless.

To make it clear, Allen's usage for ancient Greek is:
       Syllabic      Vocalic
        weight       nucleus
/me/    LIGHT        ONE MORA
/men/   HEAVY        ONE MORA
/me:/   HEAVY        TWO MORAE
/me:n/  HEAVY        TWO MORAE

Syllabic weight (heavy/ light) were used for producing different rhythms or
meters in ancient Greek verse.
Morae (in Allen's sense) were used to determine on which syllables the
pitch accent could occur (it did not fix the accent!) and whether that
pitch was a simple high pitch (acute) or high followed by a fall
(circumflex).

>This system of morae counting is used lots of
>languages (including Latin, Greek, and Japanese) to determine stress or
>pitch accent,

No, no - the Latin system is different (I don't know about Japanese).  In
Latin morae, in Allen's usage, have no relevance.  The Latin word accent
was stressed and its position _fixed_ according to the _weight_ of the
penultimate syllable.

Indeed, the Romans used syllabic weight to determine both verse rhythm (a
la Grecque) and word stress.

>and indeed the linguistic term is borrowed from Classic Greek.

Latin, actually.  In Greek there are two words 'mora' - one is used of a
division of 100 men in the Spartan army (fairly rare word, cognate with
'meros' "division"); the other is the feminine of 'mo:ros' (mo:ra "stupid
woman") or the neuter plural 'mo:ra' "stupid things".

Latin 'mora' = "delay", "pause", "interval [of time]".
In fact it was first used in Latin as a the _rhythmic unit_; i.e. a light
syllable is worth one mora, while a heavy syllable has two morae, i.e. of
the syllables above, only /me/ is monomoraic in this sense; all the others
are bimoraic.  This, of course, is *not* Allen's use of the term 'morae'.

Allen is correct IMHO to censure the use of 'long' & 'short' to apply both
to vowel length and to syllabic weight.  This usage has certainly caused
much misunderstanding and confusion in the past.  His use of _length_
(long/short) to apply only to vowels, and _weight_ (heavy/light) to apply
to syllables is a welcome and a long-overdue reform in terminology.  (As
Allen observes, ancient Hindu phoneticians were well aware of this
distinction centuries ago.)

But, having made that useful distinction, he then causes confusion by using
the term 'morae' in Greek as a unit of syllabic nuclearity and not, as
originally used in Latin, as a unit of music or rhythm.

----------------------------------------------------------------
At 10:51 am -0600 25/4/00, dirk elzinga wrote:
[....]
>
>It is now generally recognized that syllable weight can be based
>on the length of the vowel as well as on the presence of a coda
>consonant (creating a closed syllable);

Syllabic _weight_ is, indeed, based on both vowel length & the presence (or
absence) of a coda consonant in both ancient Greek & in Latin.

>languages will vary with
>respect to this option. Latin, as you pointed out in your
>message, allows consonants to fill morae, while other languages
>do not (Shoshoni is an example of such a language).

The problem is that the Latin term 'morae' was originally coined to denote
a metric unit of classical Greek & Latin verse; we can think of a mora as a
'note'. Bimoraic syllables, in this sense, occupy the space of two notes,
whereas monomoraic syllables are one note long.   In this sense we are
merely using an alternate terminolgy to that of 'heavy' & 'light' syllables
(and presence or absence of coda consonant in significant in both
languages).

Latin used syllabic weight also to determine a word's stress accent.
Ancient Greek appears to have had no significant stress accent, but it did
have pitch accent; this was not regulated by syllable weight - it was
regulated solely by vowel length alone.  To produce a simple rule for the
latter, Allen defines 'mora' simply in terms of vocalic length - hence, the
confusion, since different authorities have now defined 'mora' differently
for ancient Greek and use the unit as a measure of two different (and
unrelated - since pitch accent had no bearing on verse rhythm) features of
the language.

>Dialects of
>Eskimo have the peculiar property of allowing consonants to fill
>morae only in the first two syllables of the word; after that,
>it's all vowels.

    :-)

>> >However, I believe that the exact definition varies from language
>> >to language, but it's basically a rhythmic unit.
>>
>> Or maybe from linguist to linguist  :)
>
>:-) Among researchers in the generative tradition, I believe
>that there is consensus now that a mora is a unit of syllable
>weight, regardless if that unit is filled by a vowel or a
>consonant.

As I said, its definition varies from linguist to linguist  :)

Indeed, since - not unreasonably - those not acquainted with the different
usages of this term are likely to assume that 'morae' in Japanese,
Shoshoni, ancient Greek, Latin, Eskimo (or any other languages) all mean
the same thing, when clearly they do not, I wonder if it is not better to
avoid using the term altogether and talk about either vocalic length and or
syllabic weight.  Indeed, maybe we need _unambiguous_ terms to mean (a) a
measure of vocalic length, and (b) a measure of syllabic weight.

Clearly, e.g. some authorities are using 'mora' with meaning (a) in ancient
Greek, and others are using it with meaning (b).  This IMHO is unhelpful.

Ray.

=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

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March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
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February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
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January 2006, Week 4
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
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December 2005, Week 3
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December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 5
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April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
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November 2004, Week 3
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September 2004, Week 3
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August 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 3
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 3
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November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
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October 2003, Week 3
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June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
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May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
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March 2001, Week 3
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March 2001, Week 1
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December 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 1
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February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
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November 1999, Week 1
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June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
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February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
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December 1998, Week 1
November 1998, Week 5
November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 3
October 1998, Week 2
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