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CONLANG  April 2000, Week 4

CONLANG April 2000, Week 4

Subject:

CHAT: Passover, Easter & Lunisolar calendars (was: CHAT: Passover _and_ CHAT: Jewish Calendar)

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:23:12 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (148 lines)

At 8:10 pm -0400 26/4/00, Nik Taylor wrote:
>Lars Henrik Mathiesen wrote:
>> The definition I was taught is that Easter Sunday is the first Sunday
>> after the first full moon after the vernal equinox.
>
>Close - the first Sunday after the first full moon *on or after* the
>vernal equinox.  The official full moon can occur on March 21, but
>Easter cannot, because Easter cannot be on that full moon.

Yep - decided at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD - and both Catholic &
Orthodox claim to do this, but......

>Of course, in reality, the full moon and vernal equinox are not used,
>but merely calculated.  Thus, it's conceivable that a full month could
>occur between what astronomical observation would indicate and the
>calculation, since both the actual vernal equinox and the actual full
>moon can vary a day or so from the calculated point.

Indeed, this so; and this is why, since the time of Pope Gregory XIII
(1582), Catholic & Orthodox have more often than not, celebrated Easter at
different times: each community uses a different method of calculating the
'equinox' & 'full moon'.

Several times on this thread I've noticed reference to the
"Catholic/Protestant Easter".  In fact, when Gregory introduced his
calendar reforms in 1582, the Protestant communities continued to celebrate
Easter at the same time as the Orthodox, and only gradually over the
following two centuries came to adopt the Catholic calculation.  The
Protestant communities of Britain, e.g. did not adopt the Catholic date
until 1752 (I don't know how things went in north America).

To make things even more complicated, as Irina has pointed out, some
Orthodox now also follow the 'New Style' calendar & celebrate Easter on the
same date as their Catholic & Protestant brethren while others - I guess
the majority - still follow the 'Old Style'.

>> The same can happen with any observation-based methods of determining
>> the dates of equinox and full moon, of course. So it really does make
>> sense to fix a meridian, if only to know when 'Sunday' starts.
>
>If you want unity in celebration, certainly.  But, that's not used for
>Easter.

Indeed, it is not, otherwise we'd all celebrate Easter on the same day.
But there is a desire for unity on the part of many people.

At 8:38 pm -0400 26/4/00, Nik Taylor wrote:
>James Campbell wrote:
>> Many thanks for the detail, Steg. Would I be correct in thinking that the
>> two methods might occasionally result in slightly different leap years?
>
>Yes, and the frequency increases with time.  For obvious reasons, "as
>needed" keeps the months always in line with the seasons.  However, a
>fixed schedule of leap years does not have that advantage.  19 solar
>years is NOT exactly 235 lunations, specifically, 235 lunations is
>slightly longer than 19 solar years.

Yep - this is also one of the problems with the Christian calculation of
Easter.  The same 19-year 'Metonic' cycle is used for calculating the
Paschal 'full moon'.

The ancient Greeks also used a lunisolar calendar with the intercalation of
a 13th month from time to time to keep the seasons in order (each city
state, of course, did its own thing, like having New Year's Day in
mid-summer, other in the Autumn or Spring etc, or deciding when to
intercalate the extra month   :)

In the earliest known period, the Greeks used an 8-year cycle; but over
time this was noticed not to be very accurate.  In 433 BC the Greek
astronomer Meton came up with a more accurate 19 year cycle.  This was
adopted by the Greeks and subsequently became used by the Jews in
regulating their lunisolar calendar & by Christians in determing the date
of Easster (and all festivals dependant upon that date).  And this is where
we still are.

BTW my strong impression is that lunisolar calendars were the norm among
earlier cultures and that the festivals of the various pre-Christian
cultures of Europe were regulated by such calendars.

That is why I am from time to time surprised at noting neo-Pagan fondness
for celebrating certains festivals at the equinoxes & solstices without any
reference to moon phases.  These dates were important to, e.g. the ancient
Greeks in that they helped fix the cycle of seasons so they could calculate
when they needed a 13th month (or more strictly 'lunation') to be
intercalated (and, of course, the solstices were important, for obvious
resons, for peoples of northern Europe).  But the actual Greek pagan
festivals were quite certainly calculated by using _both_ the sun _and_ the
moon, i.e. by the lunisolar calendar, i.e. in the way still used by Jews
for determing their religious festivals, and Christians for determing
Easter & related festivals.

>Currently, the average date of
>Jewish festivals is about eight days later than it was in 359, when the
>current rules were published.

This is always the problem with such 'mechanical' methods of calculation.
Even in ancient times it was known that the Metonic cycle was not entirely
accurate (tho more accurate than the earlier 8-year cycle of the Greeks).
Only a century after Meton's reforms, the astronomer Kallippos proposed a
more accurate 66-year cycle.  But I guess the simpler Metonic cycle was
felt to be "good enough".  At any rate, that is the one both Jews and
Christians still use, despite its known inaccuracies.

Yes, it is now possible to determine accurately the date of both the Vernal
Equinox and the full moon, and to decide the exact start of Saturday and
Sunday at any particular place on the Earth's surface, i.e. it would now be
possible in theory for Jews, Orthodox Christians, Catholics & Protestants
to agree on a common method for calculating the Passover & Easter in such a
way that the festivals always co-incided for all these communities.  But I
somehow doubt that it'll happen.

Indeed, in more recent times there has been a move in Christian circles to
abandon the lunisolar system and to adopt a fixed Easter.  As early as June
15, 1928, the British 'House of Commons' adopted for the third reading a
Bill that from 1930 Easter should be the Sunday immediately following the
second Saturday in April (i.e. either the 2nd or 3rd Sunday of April, thus
no earlier that 9th April and no later than 15th April).  This would've
been binding upon the established Church (i.e. Church of England), but a
clause in the Bill said that before it came into operation due regard had
to be given to opinion expressed officially by various Christian Churches.
Hence the Bill has not been enacted   :)

In 1963, however, the Vatican Council declared itself in favor of a fixed
Easter but - unlike in the time of Gregory XIII - this should not be done
without agreement with other Christian Churches.

There was a long discussion on this topic last year about this time - I
don't recall whether it was generally on Conlang or confined just to the
'Brithenig group' - and I seem to recall it being said that there had been
agreement between Rome, the World Council of Churches and the (main)
Orthodox Churches to fix Easter on the 2nd Sunday of April and that this
would be enacted in 2001, to mark the 1st year of the 3rd Christian
Millennium.

I've heard nothing since.  Am I merely dreaming?  Or was this another pious
wish that has come to nothing?  Or is it really going to happen?

Ray.




=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

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February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
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January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
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November 2005, Week 5
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October 2005, Week 5
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January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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January 2004, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 3
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
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April 2003, Week 5
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April 2003, Week 2
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March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
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February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
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November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
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July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
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April 2002, Week 5
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March 2002, Week 5
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January 2002, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 5
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December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
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February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1998, Week 5
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October 1998, Week 3
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