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CONLANG  May 2000, Week 1

CONLANG May 2000, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Pre-Celtic substrate

From:

Raymond Brown <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 1 May 2000 21:03:28 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (172 lines)

At 11:12 am +0100 1/5/00, And Rosta wrote:
>Ray:
>> At 4:47 pm -0400 26/4/00, Padraic Brown wrote:
>> >On Wed, 26 Apr 2000, And Rosta wrote:
>> >
>> >>Ray:
>> >>> All the evidence points to (insular) Celtic as being _originally_
>> VSO. Why
>> >>> this should be so is AFAIK unknown and one of those features that
>> >>> "Celto-Semitists" like to point as evidence of Semitic influence :)
>> >>
>> >>Why the smiley? Is the notion of there being a Semitic substrate beneath
>> >>insular Celtic so daft?
>>
>> In a word - yes.
>
>Well sunsequent postings in this thread haven't demonstrated that it is
>so daft relative to other speculations about a prehistory for which
>evidence is so scanty.

Yes, but it doesn't say much for the notion. All the speculations I've
read in the past few weeks here are relatively sane compared with some I've
come across. I've found in the areas of research that theories increase in
barminess in direct proportion to the scantiness of the evidence - hardly
surprising, I guess.

In the 1970s & 80s I was much occupied with research into pre-Greek
linguistics, especially in regard to Crete. I suspose, to be frank, my
reaction to Semitic substrate is somewhat colored by that experience.

One of the less attractive things I discovered was that some "researchers"
were determined to find an Indo-European origin for everything possible;
and the motive was clearly partly racial, to prove that the 'true' IE were
the master-race - a notion that pre-dates the Nazis and has its origins in
'sub-darwinian' theories of the 19th cent. As a reaction, there were some
"researches" equally determined to find a Semitic origin in everything, and
part of their motivation was clearly no less racial.

I think many on this list know my abhorrence of racism.

AFAIK Semitic languages are found in that part of the world we called the
'Near East' when I was young, but which practically everyone now calles the
'Middle East'. The Phoenicians, it is true, carried their language to the
western Mediterranean & even possibly further afield.

With the spread of Islam, the Arab language was carried over a wide area,
but that is far too late to be a pre-Celtic substrate. If anyone is going
to postulate that the megalith builders of western Europe, Britain &
Ireland were Semites, they will need very sound evidence to convince me.

[....]
>
>I rather like the way that speculations of this sort remain rational and open
>to debate but at the same time are so unconstrained by actual evidence that
>they are more of an art form.

Yes, that's fine as long as it is remembered they are an art form. It's
when people start confusing art for scientific evidence that the mischief
starts.

[....]
>
>I'm without access to my reference books else I would check this rather
>than ask, but is Hamito-Semitic anything but a synonym for Afroasiatic, and
>is it not the case that Berber belongs to the Semitic branch of Afroasiatic?

My notes are all hidden away, but I think some people do use the term
AfroAsiatic rather than HamitoSemitic. I'd be extremely surprised if
Berber were in the Semitic branch; from what I recall:
(the table below will look odd if you don't have a monotype font)

                    - N.W.Semitic - Hebrew, Aramaic etc
          Semitic | - Arabic
Hamito- | \ - Ethiopic - Amharic etc
Semitic |
group | - Egyptian, Coptic
         \ Hamitic | - Cushitic
                   \ - Berber

>> i.e. an 'Iberian' substrate spreading from north west Africa, up through the
>> Iberian peninsular, western Gaul, Britain & Ireland.
>
>Exactly the point of my original question.

Yes, but by 'Iberian' here I specifically do not mean Semitic.

>> This is held to account for the short,
>> swarthy types still much in evidence in south Wales and parts of Ireland.
>
>Are these supposed to be the aborigines, or was their physical type
>superimposed on another earlier type?

Who knows? Who can tell how many different peoples have passed through
Britain?

>>
>> Also some people like to point out from time to time the co-incidence that
>> the personal name Idris occurs both in Wales and in north Africa - a
>> co-incidence?
>
>Ah -- that's explains why my son's very obviously non-Welsh classmate should
>have what I thought was a Welsh name...

Indeed. I seem to have some vague recollection of a King Idris of Libya
from the dim & distant days of my youth. Or is my mind playing tricks?

[...]
>>Another area
>> was called Iberia for many centuries - Georgia (the one in the Caucasus -
>> not in the US :)
>
>I seem to recall, which usual vague synaptic fizzle, some sort of connection
>between _Iberia_ and Ireland, too.

Only by confusion, I think. The usual form of the name in Greek authors
was Ierne: (Strabo, Pseudo-Aristotle, Stephanos) or Iouernia /iwernia/
(Pseudo-Agathemeros, Marcian, Stephanos, Eustathios). Some MSs give
Ibernia as variant spelling. In Latin it is practically always Hibernia
(Caesar, Pliny, Tacitus, Solinus, Orosius, Isidore & Bede); Hiuerna
/hIwErna/ is found in Mela & Juvenal; Claudian has Hiuerne /hIwErne:/ and
Julius Honorius has Hibero.

I guess that as /h/ became silent in late Latin, it was easy, especially if
one's notion of geography was hazy, to confuse Hiber(n)ia, Iberia.

But the Iberian peninsular was actually called Iberia & the country we now
call Georgia was commonly named Iberia in former times.

[...]
>> The most
>> plausible (or least daft) links with Basque that I've seen made do suggest
>> some ultimate connexion with Georgian & the Kartvelian languages.
>
>On what basis?

As, I said to another list member who asked exactly the same question, I'll
need to dig out my notes to answer that one (and I can't promise getting
that done before July). But I stress its one of the least daft links - and
when it comes to links with Basque, that doesn't actually say much :)

[....]
>> One thing I've never been able to find the answer to is whether these
>> 'Semitic' features of insular Celtic are strictly "insular" (i.e. peculiar
>> to the Celtic of Ireland & Britain) or were they features of continental
>> Celtic?
>
>The answer I've heard, tho I couldn't tell you where, is that they are
>insular. Someone else's message in this thread has said that continental
>Celtic was standard average early IE in character, and that insular
>Celtic evolved its idiosyncrasies in situ.

Yes, that does seem to be the consensus opinion here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

>What I'm curious about is whether the known history
>of Afro-Asiatic is compatible with the Neolithic lgs of Atlantic Europe
>being Semitic.

But what do we know about neolithic languages of the Atlantic board of Europe?

Ray.





=========================================
A mind which thinks at its own expense
will always interfere with language.
                   [J.G. Hamann 1760]
=========================================

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