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AUXLANG  May 2000, Week 2

AUXLANG May 2000, Week 2

Subject:

Re: IAL Workshop

From:

[log in to unmask]

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 10 May 2000 16:18:52 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (95 lines)

On Wed, 10 May 2000 02:33:09 +0100, Roy McCoy <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Chris Burd skribis:
>
>> I could accept a lot of Eo's mechanics, if the E-ists could accept
>> the principle of an objective, open word-selection algorithm (whether
>> precisely that of IALA or not).
>
>I can sympathize with it, having myself flirted lately with the idea of
>an inter-American IAL based exclusively on English, French, Portuguese
>and Spanish, phoneticized with an Esperanto-like grammar. I'd call this
>"Americanto", corresponding to Europanto but serious rather than a joke.
>The idea would be to fashion something that an entire hemisphere would
>like and use, perhaps in school programs, and maybe it could take off
>from there... Okay, a typical interlingual fantasy, I know.

I may - just *may* - be prejudiced, but I think IALA Interlingua is about
optimal for that purpose. For one thing, the usual objection to Ia ("too
Anglo-Romanic") dissolves when all the prospective users can leverage
knowledge of English or a Romance language.

But secondly, if we put aside Finvenko-ish expectations as something for
the distant future at best, I think we have to consider three factors in
making an IAL useful. First is the standard IAL model, initiates talking
with initiates. Second is the prime-vista model, initiates talking with
(more frequently, writing to) non-initiates. Third is the propaedeutic
model, initiates obtaining an intellectual entree into the source languages
(and improving their general linguistic competence).

As we march towards the Finvenko (funny that "victoria final" doesn't seem
to occur in any of the Ia literature), the balance among these factors
shifts. Initially the standard IAL model provides few benefits due to what
economists call network effects. Even the prime-vista model, which is in
theory free from network effects, is undermined by the marginal status of
the IAL idea. People who could perfectly easily use Ia, actively or
passively, tend not to because IALs are not respectable.

The fact is that propaedeutic uses, which mainline IAL-ists tend to laugh
out of court, are currently the single strongest reason to use any of the
major IALs (I'm thinking of Lojban and the two Esperantos as well as Ia and
Occ.). For this reason I don't think there's much benefit in streamling the
Latin/Romance morphology which is Ia's main complication relative to Eo
(the grammars are about equally complex). If anything, you might want to
make Ia more Romance, con articulos multiformos, agradamento inter los
substantivos e los adjectivos, pseudo-generes grammaticos, e finalos
personalos sur los verbos. Something along the lines of David Stark's
Latino Moderne, in fact.

But in reality, you'd probably want to stick close the current version,
which at least has some resources available.

>> You've probably heard this one before. Replace -N with the prepositions
>> JE, AL, or *NA depending the meaning intended. Allow users to omit *NA
>> when the word order is clearly SVO or otherwise unambiguous (that is,
>> most of the time).
>
>I came up with A, I believe on my own, as a general prepositional
>substitute. I still find it to be a perfectly lovely little word, but
>I wouldn't want to add all the extra syllables that this would entail,
>and any kind of "on again, off again" accusative doesn't seem to be a
>particularly attractive idea to a lot of people. I don't know where NA
>came from, but it's interesting that a fellow in my Esperanto reform group
>proposed AN for the same thing. At any rate I'm aware of the possibility
>of using a short preposition, but tend to hanker more for something as
>concise as Esperanto's -N.

"Na" isn't my invention; I think it's around in Eo circles. The "on again,
off again" criticism is the flip side of "why carry an umbrella on a sunny
day?" I don't see any resolution except perhaps by looking at learners and
eternaj komenciantoj. I strongly suspect that a realistic appraisal would
result in chucking the "other" uses of -N, if not the straight accusative
use. What I like about my scheme is that it de-emphasises the importance of
accusative marking. "'Na' marks the direct object, but when the identity of
the direct object is clear [define conditions], you can drop it." It sounds
like common sense. In any case, it's surely less complicated than the
current rules and practices concerning JE vs -N and AL vs -N.

>Don Harlow wrote:
>
>> Where did you get the idea that UEA was a monopoly? SAT, LF-Koop and
>> perhaps even the ERA would take exception to this, though all of them
>> have different philosophies than UEA.

Roy has responded far more convincingly than I could have, of course. He
comments confirm what I assumed: that UEA is what political scientists call
a hegemonic peak organisation without effective rivals. Indeed it's more
domininant in Esperantujo than Microsoft is in the computer business. (When
he's not responding on autopilot, I'm sure Don can tell the difference
between and argument from analogy and an argument illustrated by an
analogy.)

Cheers,

Chris

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