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AUXLANG  May 2000, Week 2

AUXLANG May 2000, Week 2

Subject:

Re: -uj in Esp

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 11 May 2000 13:29:24 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (180 lines)

James Chandler skribis:

> Ken rote:
>
> > > Personal preferences aside, this Esp combination [uj] does present
> > > enormous
> >
> >No.
>
> Ken, what does not cause you much difficulty may cause others great
> difficulty.  You may find it easy to pronounce a diphthong with a starting
> point of [u] ending in a j-glide, but i for one find this prohibitively
> difficult, much harder than many non-English sounds in foren languages that
> i have managed to acquire.  This is hardly surprising, given that a
> diphthong with this starting point in Eng ends naturally in a w-glide, not a
> j-glide.

Did you miss the recent message (sorry, I've forgotten the author)
citing examples of "uj" (or near sound-alikes) in English?  Please come
down from this particular hobby-horse, James.

> > > and completely unnecessary (on Esps own terms)
> >
> >Please explain.
>
> By this i mean that Esp is based on european languages, and has a phonology
> based specificly on those of the romanic languages, with Z apparently citing
> italian as the model for Esp pronunciation.  On this basis, diphthongs of
> this sort, and especially [uj], are not justified.

Zamenhof left pronunciation guidelines for vowels in Esperanto somewhat
loose.  Having only /a/, /e/, /i/, /o/, /u/, + 2 diphthong markers means
that there aren't as many opportunities for misunderstanding due to
similarity of vowels as in languages with more extensive vowel
collections, and eases orthography difficulties (cf. English which has
several times more spoken vowels than available letters to denote
them).  When pressed for recommendations, Zamenhof mentioned Italian as
a good choice, but it is rather far-fetched for you to now claim that
this is a fundamental specification of Esperanto phonology and
artificially ban "uj", while presumably accepting "aj" and "ej".

> > > difficulty for many groups, incl. Eng-speakers.
> >
> >It would be fascinating to see a language which presents no difficulties
> >for anyone.  But perhaps if all "difficult" sounds were eliminated, we'd
> >only have /a/, with roughly 10^5 different meanings.  No, wait, too many
> >multiple meanings for any word would present difficulties for some of
> >us.  ;-)
>
> Ken demonstrates once again his complete failure to grasp the principles of
> IAL design by using wild exageration to criticize reasonable simplification.

Sorry if the sarcasm escaped you.  I'll try to remember to mark it in
the future.  (Whoops!  This paragraph itself is sarcastic!  Mea culpa.)

>   Actually, there is a minimal set of vowel phonemes in the worlds
> languages, but it is /a,i,u/.

I am very interested in and surprised by the statement that a minimal
set of vowel phonemes exists.   Could you please give some references
for this?  Given the incredible variety of human languages, I really
would not have been surprised at all to be told that the intersection
was the empty set.

> There is a very marginal difference between
> this set and the fuller set /a,e,i,o,u/, which is in fact what is used in
> Esp and Ido.

I'm not sure I'd call this a "marginal difference".  I'm ok with it, but
my 6th grade child would tell me that going from 3 to 5 is an increase
of 66 2/3 %.

> This is in fact one area where the optimal solution is quite

I do start looking around nervously for the exit when someone uses the
term "optimal solution" in the linguistic domain, which is _not_ as
rigorous as mathematics.  I guess I have a hard time believing that such
an animal exists or could be found in a finite time.

> easy to reach, and there is no argument for introducing further complication
> into the vowel system, such as diphthongs or rarer vowel types like rounded
> front vowels.

I wonder why you support Ido's diphthongs.  Can it be merely because
they aren't marked as such?

> >One might make a case for eliminating all diphthongs.  Esperanto has
> >only two sorts of diphthongs, vowel + j and vowel + ¨.
>
> To the extent that these are essentially (underlyingly) distinct from
> combinations in -i and -u, this is two sorts too many.

I disagree, for the reasons given below:

> >It is also
> >important to note that neither j not ¨ is a vowel in its own right, in
> >Esperanto, thus there is no ambiguity in pronunciation.  La¨ mi, this is
> >significantly better than in some IALs which use "i" and "u" to
> >represent standalone vowels _and_ to create diphthongs.  (Yes, this is a
> >"feature" of certain unplanned languages, but that's no excuse for
> >keeping it in a planlingvo.)  For instance, if you see "ai" in an
> >Esperanto word, you know that this represents two sound in two
> >syllables, in contrast to "aj", which is a diphthong.  In this vein, I
> >would have no bone to pick with a planned language which abandonned
> >diphthongs entirely.
>
> The point is that the diphthongs in Esp are effectively distinct vowel
> types, altho they seem to be biphonemic and thus not actually extra vowel
> phonemes (at least in theory).  In an Ido word like 'fairo', this is
> actually three syllables: fa-i-ro, tho a phonological rule allows the two
> vowels optionally to be run together to produce a phonetic diphthong.  In
> other words the Ido rules allow great flexibility as to how a sequence of
> two vowels is realized.  In Esp, on the other hand, 'aj' _must_ be realized
> as a diphthong in order to keep it distinct from 'ai' (since presumably
> phonological neutralizations are something we would wish to avoid in an
> IAL).

Ido's modus operandi does seem to run to "optional" rules, doesn't it?
Increased complications, increased confusion.

> > > You might as well go back to
> > > Volapu"k and have rounded front vowels.
> >
> >No connection.
>
> It is possible that you cant see the connection, Ken, but to me it is
> abundantly clear.  Both phonemic diphthongs and rounded front vowels are
> comparatively rare vowel types that are difficult to acquire if they are not
> a feature of ones native language.  They are both superfluous complications
> to the unobjectionable vowel set /a,e,i,o,u/.

Let's cut to the chase.  You took an opportunity to (yet again)
denigrate Esperanto and tried to lump it together with Volapu"k, on the
flimsiest of pretexts.  Let's consider the argument here:

Volapu:k has 3 extra vowels (a", o", u") which don't exist in Esperanto
or Ido.  Esperanto uses 2 symbols (j, ¨) which can be appended to vowels
to form diphthongs, which don't exist in Volapu:k, but _do_ exist in
Ido, although the Idist is left to guess whether a given vowel
combination should be treated as separate vowels or as a diphthong.  I
think I'll put this in a table for easy reference:  [switch to
fixed-space font for best viewing]

                        Volapu"k    Esperanto      Ido
                        --------    ---------      ---
Number of vowels           8           5           5
Has dipthongs              no          yes         yes
Marks dipthongs            --          yes         no
Ambiguous pronunciation    no          no          yes

Et voilÓ!  I'm _certain_ that anyone considering this data will agree
with James' lumping Esperanto and Volapu"k together in scorn.  [Caution,
sarcasm!]

When there's a difference between Ido and Esperanto, we can count on
James to criticize the Esperanto method of doing things, whether or not
the Ido treatment is more confusing and less appropriate for a _planned_
auxiliary language.   To mix a magnificent metaphor, when we set our
hand to the plow to grind our axe, let's not check our logic at the
door.

As I mentioned previously and am quoted above, I could understand
creating a plannend language without any diphthongs, but certainly
couldn't stomach the ambiguous Ido system of using diphthongs without
marking them, leaving it all to guesswork.  How can that be rationally
portrayed as a "scientific improvement" to Esperanto?!

G`is reskribo,
Ken
--
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*
  | Ken CAVINESS           Physics at Southern Adventist University |
  | [log in to unmask]             ESPERANTO = Lingvo internacia |
  | http://southern.edu/~caviness/     E-o/English/Franšais/Deutsch |
  *-----------------------------------------------------------------*

To get paid for your web-surfing time, click here:

          <http://www.southern.edu/~chansen/EarnNSurf.html>

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