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SCUBA-L  May 2000, Week 3

SCUBA-L May 2000, Week 3

Subject:

Re: A diving accident in the Blue Hole - Dahab,Red Sea.

From:

Lee Bell <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Lee Bell <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 17 May 2000 16:52:10 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (164 lines)

I guess I owe you an apology.  I defended your method, suggesting that the
reason someone else thought it was overly risky was not because it was, but
because you assumed others understood things you took for granted and,
therefore, did not mention.  After your insulting response, I withdraw my
defense of your suggestion.

I suggested an alternative method which I prefer because it is even more
effective and eliminates some risks, even if they are minimal.  In response,
you state that I lack understanding of the physics.  You are mistaken in
your assessment of my understanding and in several of the points you stated
as facts.

> > I think Carl left out a lot of things that might explain how this could
be
> > done safely.  Many of us fall victim to the same mistake by assuming
that
> > what we take for granted is equally obvious to others.  Doing this drill
in
> > a pool with less than half a breath of air should be pretty safe.  Doing
it
> > at the end of a deep dive might be real foolish.  While I think what
Carl
>
> BALONEY.  You clearly know not what you speak.

Read my statement again.  I stated responded to a statement that your method
seemed risky by explaining that the respondent simply did not understand
that you were taking some things for granted.  You later said the same
thing.  Unless the depth, decompression status and a host of other factors
are, in your opinion, not signficant, then my statement is not baloney, it's
accurate.  I stated that your method was OK provided you do it under
conditions you assumed would be obvious which were not so obvious to the
repondent.  Care to rethink your disagreement?

> FACT:  You will NOT be able to take a *FULL* 100% lung filling breath
> and hold it while you're doing almost any type of physical activity.

Incorrect.  I can take as full a breath prior to exercising as I can at any
other time and can certainly hold it.  All freedivers do it all of the time.
I've done it just to prove I could descend wearing a life preserver.  You
probably have done it on occasion.

> FACT:  Divers are always taught to "breathe normally".

Incorrect.  Not all divers were taught to breathe normally at all times.  In
fact, a great many of us were taught not to hold our breath during an ascent
and nothing more.  In my opinion, the breath continuously and normally
"rule" was used because already task loaded new divers can't be expected to
refrain from holding their breath when ascending.  It's a workable method,
but a bogus rule.  There's nothing dangerous about holding your breath while
descending.

> As I already said, when exerting yourself (such as when finning inverted
against bouyancy)
> you are NOT holding your breathe.

Since I've already commented on your fact, I'll leave that part alone.  The
post I responded to specifically mentioned the possibility of panic.  In a
panic situation, you don't have the slightest idea of whether the victim
will hold his breath or not.

> FACT: The depth of your lungs in most pools (say a 10' pool) will be
> roughly 7' for a totat  ATA of less than 1.25 atm, meaning you would have
to take a
> larger than 80% breath to exceed their maximum capacity and HOLD it - a
basic
> no-no for ANY certified diver but certainly anyone who is doing something
like
> this should have at least half a brain - something too many divers LACK.

If too many divers lack a half a brain, then your idea is poor for too many
divers, right?  You missed the word panic again.  You also seem to have
missed the fact that your original post did nto specify the exercise be done
in a pool.  At least two other people didn't make this assumption.  I did
and I assumed that you had too.

> FACT: It is generally considered true that the lungs can withstand a
> 10% overpressure, making the numbers in the above paragraph even more
> conservative and implying that you would have to take in close to a 90%
full breath
> and hold it.  This is not as simple as it seems.

Incorrect.  Alviolli, which can be damaged in a lung expansion injury are
generally assumed to be vulnerable to a pressure differential of as little
as 1.5 psi.  The lungs themselves can withstand more, but a burst lung is
not the only lung expansion injury that's possible.

> > suggested can be done safely, I do not favor his method (I haven't seen
way

> Because you CLEARLY don't understand it or the biology and physics
> behind it.

Read what I said again.  I specifically stated that your method could be
done safetly under the right conditions, but that I favor my method over
yours.  If I clearly don't understand the biology and physics, then perhaps
I was as wrong as you suggest, when I suggested your method was not as
dangerous as it initially appeared to those who didn't assume you were
taking things you didn't say for granted, things that make all the
difference between a safe practice and a hazardous one.

> A REAL WORLD scenario of a runaway inflator will do just what I indicated.
> It will compress your torse if you wear a jacket BC making breathing
> even MORE labored (and making it even harder to take a deep breathe!)...

Incorrect again.  First, I don't wear a jacket style BC.  If you paid
attention to what was going on in the list, you would have known this.  I
use a Halcyon wing.  Second, modern BC's are designed to inflate away from
the diver and do not compress the torso unless the straps used to keep in
from flopping around are pulled much tighter than necessary.  Finally, who
said anything about a runaway inflator?

> This is theoretically true, however, as I just mentioned it is actually
> quite a different scenario.  Lifting weights that are NOT clipped off to
> you require additional muscles come into play requiring more energy, O2,
> etc.

Holding on to a weight requires very little energy relative to the energy
required to lift it from the bottom or, hold it down (in the case of
buoyancy.  In fact, lifting weight will meet the need we started out to meet
whereas your method will not.  I can measure the weight lifted quite easily.
How were you planning to measure the buoyancy you resisted?  Remember, our
original goal was to see how much buoyancy you could resist.

> > weight you're lifting is not problematic unless, of course, you're
dropping
> > a hard weight on the bottom of a pool.  Further, lifting weight can be
done

> Nothing that says that you can't put something on the bottom of the pool
> to protect it, or, suspend the weight from above such that it would not
hit
> the bottom.

Humor challanged today, are we?

> > without a tank, eliminating the risk of a lung expansion injury even if
> > everything comes apart at once.  Hopefully, I don't have to say that you
> > hold the weight rather than fasten it to yourself.

> Since I'm not aware of *anyone* that has ever had a lung expansion
> injury doing this I don't think that either your or I can adequately
assess the
> risk other than saying that to our knowledge it has never happened.

Incorrect.  While I have not heard of anyone who's experienced a lung
expansion injury this way, I also am unaware of anyone other than you who
has tried this.  Even if I did, I don't have to witness a problem to know
there is a risk of one.  I continue to maintain that:
1. The risk is greater in your method than in mine (even if minimal in
yours).
2. My method allows you to quantify your ability to fin against force while
yours does not.

Having said all that, I think you need to go back and read my post again,
this time with an open mind.  I specifically stated that the risk of your
suggestion was not as great as it appeared, adding conditions that you might
have taken for granted that would make a difference in the overall level of
perceived risk.  You have attacked and insulted someone who was supporting
you when you did it.  If your problem is with the fact that I have a method
I prefer, too bad.  I get to have an opinion too.

Lee

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