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CONLANG  May 2000, Week 4

CONLANG May 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: CHAT: "John Doe" equivalents sought

From:

Vasiliy Chernov <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 23 May 2000 13:13:58 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (116 lines)

On Thu, 20 May 0100 20:08:42 -0400, John Cowan <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
<...>
>In Anglo-America, the names "John Doe" and "Richard Roe"
>(and female equivalents with "Jane") are used in the legal system and
>elsewhere for people whose names are not known.
<...>

I'm afraid there is no good equivalent in Russian, since I cannot think
of anything that would suit specifically the *legal* system; but there
are a few similar expressions in broader use.

A fairly common one (formerly bookish) is _imyarek_. Originates from
Church usage: _imya rek_ in Church Slavonic means '(having) said (the)
name'; this expression was inserted in the texts of traditional prayers
where an actual person's name has to be pronounced. Hardly analyzable
in Russian, it was interpreted as a single word meaning 'no-matter-which
person', 'so-and-so'.

On Sun, 21 May 2000 02:26:16 +0200, taliesin the storyteller
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
<...>
>A harry person: fat hair, wearing jeans or leather or a
>mix, furry dice and wunderbaum in the tweaked car (uses it to attract
chicks),
>the car-stereo, which probably cost more than the car, is churning out
either
>something to woo (also harry) girls with, or some old Country (oh sorry
it's
>named "roots" here now) or other unspeakably bad music, with a volume high
>enough to pierce your ear-drums. Bad booze (read: moonshine), worse
tobacco,
>low income, low status (most places), no future.
<...>
A remote Russian equivalent will be _dyadya Vasya_ (Unklie Vasya; less
common, Petya or Kolya): mostly drunk, wearing something too warm for
the weather and blotted with lubricants, smelling accordingly, obtuse.
The female version is _tyotya Masha_ (Auntie Masha; sometimes, Nyura):
fat and busy bying foods most of the day. Their younger relative might
be some _Van'ka_: always idle, easy to deceive and ill-mannered.

For the military, all civilian/new-recruit vices are personified as
_devka Mashka_ (lassie Mashka).

On Sun, 21 May 2000 20:28:21 +0200, Lars Henrik Mathiesen <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>In Denmark it's NN, for 'nomen nescio'.
On Sun, 21 May 2000 10:21:50 -0300, FFlores <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>In Spanish, the name unknown people get in hospitals, prisons,
>etc. is just "N. N." /,ene'ene/ or /,e'nene/.

- Also known in Russia. Mostly written with Roman letters. Literary,
obsolete. Sometimes only one N (resembling the maths usage: _ennyj_
'n-th', and the like).

On Sun, 21 May 2000 14:22:09 -0500, Matt Pearson
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>And let's not forget their address:
>
> 123 Main Street
> Anytown, USA
- Indeed, their Russian fellows live in the city of Ensk (so to
say, Nborough). I am not sure of the street, however. In the Soviet
times it would be Prospekt Lenina, of course ;)

On Sun, 21 May 2000 10:21:50 -0300, FFlores <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>For hypothetical
>people, there are three: "fulano", "mengano", "zutano" (or
>lately "sultano").
>These three are used in that order (that is, "mengano" cannot
>appear if a certain "fulano" hasn't been mentioned before).
>In fact, it looks like a deixis system... If "fulano" is
>"some guy", then "mengano" is "some other guy". Change the
>gender ("fulana", etc.) for women.

On Mon, 22 May 2000 11:54:21 -0300, Gustavo Eulalio <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> In Portuguese, there's Fulano (de Tal), Beltrano and Cicrano,
>as in Spanish, said always in that order.

- In Russian, a similar series includes three frequent surnames:
Ivanov, Petrov, Sidorov. Used only when no actual Petrovs/Ivanovs/
Sidorovs can be concerned. Female equivalents rare (feminine forms
of the same surnames: Ivanova, etc.).

On Mon, 22 May 2000 10:03:18 +0200, Christophe Grandsire
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>In French, we have "untel", and the feminine "unetelle", which are
>sometimes used as names: Monsieur Untel or Madame Unetelle.
- These resemble the Russian _takoy-to_ 'so-and-so' (from _takoy_ 'such').
Can be used with titles: _G-n takoy-to_ 'Mr. so-and-so'. Also used
attributively: _takoy-to gorod_ 'such-and-such a city').

>Generic names
>could be some like Dupont and Durand, which are quite common in France.
- The abovesaid Ivanov, Petrov, and Sidorov fit this position.

On Mon, 22 May 2000 11:54:21 -0300, Gustavo Eulalio <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> And also, "Num-sei-quem" (I-don't-know-who) -- I believe this
>particular to Brazil.

On Mon, 22 May 2000 12:51:28 -0400, Nik Taylor <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>We have what's-his-name and so-and-so, as well as what's-his-face, a
>somewhat ruder version of what's-his-name.

This resembles _kak bish' yego_ (_...yeyo_, etc.) 'how, remind me, [did
they call] him (her, etc.)'. Can replace any name, or even any noun.

Funnily, the almost invariable hero of grammatical examples in Russian
linguistic tradition is Pyotr ( = Peter). Has survived most incredible
situations, like John in the English tradition ;)


Basilius

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