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AUXLANG  May 2000, Week 5

AUXLANG May 2000, Week 5

Subject:

Loglan reunited?

From:

"Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 30 May 2000 04:33:28 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (100 lines)

>From:    Paul O Bartlett <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: ancient history?
>
>On Mon, 29 May 2000, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote (tiny excerpt):
> >                    And if TLI Loglan and Lojban can mend our split,
>
>     I am curious as to speculations on what such a mending might be
>like.

Well, thus far of course there is no sign that either camp will abandon
their version for the other group's %^).  But you asked for speculation, so
here goes.

1.  One suggestion was the introduction of a cmavo (structure word) that is
identical/unambiguous in both versions that toggles between versions, in
effect achieving merger by simple union.  Such a word was proposed in
Lojban's experimental cmavo space, and hence this can take place
unofficially with no action on the part of LLG (TLI controls its language
by academy).

Now it seems likely that in such an instance that the "merged" language
would be not a single language in more than name, in that few in one camp
could understand those in the other (but there are several Lojbanists who
have no trouble with TLI Loglan, especially with a wordlist handy for
backup when they forget a word), but we would have achieved the excuse
needed to have everyone start pulling in the same direction.

2.  It does seem likely to me (as leader of the Lojban community of course)
that Lojban is not going to lose anyone as a result of JCBs death, whereas
TLI has lost its charismatic leader and inspiration, not to mention the hub
and spokes of its organization.  Lojban will likely continue to gain
speakers (and at the moment is  growing a little faster than usual due to
the slashdot fallout) while TLI Loglan will be stagnant, at least for a
while, in speaker base.

Only in Russia are both languages competing on more or less equal standing
because of an exceptionally energetic TLI Loglanist.  On the other hand,
because I adopted my two kids from Russia, and it is the one natlang that I
have any proficiency in other than my native one (though not enough for
conversation), Russia is important to me as well, and we have some fairly
skilled Lojbanists in Russian as well as the gifted Bulgarian linguist and
polyglot Ivan Derzhanski, who has native Russian fluency and probably would
also be fluent in Lojban if he had anyone to talk to.

3.  A suggestion by the leader of Alex Leith, the new head of TLI after
JCB's death, is that Lojban would be the Loglan language of use whereas the
TLI language would be the Loglan language of experiment.  It is not clear
exactly what he means by this, but I think he is basing his statement on
the fact that our language is fully baselined and will not be changed,
whereas the TLI language is actually committed to evolve by academic
direction as new ideas are thought of.

We could certainly live with a group using the TLI language as a test bed
to try things out, whereupon by some as yet unidentified mechanism
successful ideas could be introduced into the naturalistic Lojban speech
community.

It is possible that he is envisioning that LLG be the Auxlang branch of the
community, seeking to promote use of the language, while TLI would be the
academic branch, seeking to promote linguistics research.  This division of
responsibilities is not what I have in mind, but is certainly something
that will be discussible in the coming months.

4. Meanwhile, there is considerable effort planned to develop aids and
tools to do inter-version decoding, word lookup, etc.  Since Lojban is
effectively a superset of TLI Loglan, TLI Loglan to Lojban is essentially a
word lookup and replacement decoding problem.  The other direction is a
little trickier but not nearly as hard as Lojban to natlang.  The main
problem here will be to find out if anyone will actually use such tools.  I
personally think that in a spirit of cooperation and given Lojban's rapid
growth while TLI Loglan is stagnant, that people will just bite the bullet
and relearn Lojban: it just isn't that hard if you know you will only have
to do it once.

5. Most importantly of course, we will almost certainly be agreeing to bury
the legal disputes once and for all.  I can't say much more than this, in
part since I don't know any more, but I don't want to compromise any
agreement that might come about by speculating either.

In short, I think the result will be that the two organizations will
continue to exist, with somewhat different purposes, possibly even two
language versions will continue to exist with somewhat different purposes,
though they may be nominally merged as a single language as a matter of
"treaty".  I think that Lojban will be the surviving language for all
intents and purposes that would matter to the Auxlang community, and that
the LLG community and its structure will be the principal support behind
that language version for the most part.  We would gain the
spiritual/political/"propaganda" triumph of having reunited a schism,
something I think that is unprecedented in the Auxlang tradition (anyone
know of any examples?); it would be nice to be able to show the world that
we can live the ideals that an Auxlang is supposed to promote rather than
be more internally divided than even the real world is.

lojbab
--
lojbab                                             [log in to unmask]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA                    703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:                 http://www.lojban.org

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