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AUXLANG  May 2000, Week 5

AUXLANG May 2000, Week 5

Subject:

Last installment (estis: Re: A little experiment.)

From:

Ken Caviness <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 30 May 2000 10:17:23 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (169 lines)

"Robert J. Petry, C.L." skribis:

> caviness wrote:
>
> > >===== Original Message From International Auxiliary Languages
> > <[log in to unmask]> =====
> > >maf wrote:
> > >
> > >> [kut]
> > >> Even knowing that, I still wouldn't just dismiss the whole 'at sight' camp
> > as
> > >> contemptiously as Pierpaolo did.
> > >
> > >I know it belabors a point. but, he did admit to being an Esperantist. He
> > didn't
> > >say whether his friend was, or not.
> >
> > I've also heard that all men are dishonest and untrustworthy, so better not
> > believe anything he says for that reason as well.
>
> It has nothing to do with dishonesty. But, it is consistent with the "Esperantist
> frame of mind" according to a "famous" IAL writer. And, I wasn't that writer.

I'm glad to hear that you didn't originate that bilge.  But you're not
off the hook, you should be ashamed to quote such prejudiced
generalizations.  You are the one choosing the quotes, and the quotes
touch a chord within you or you wouldn't choose them.  You cannot hide
behind this excuse any more.  You're the one making these prejudiced
claims now, or resurrecting them when they should be decently ignored or
interred.

If I were to search hard enough, I could find derogatory quotes about
ANY group of people.  If I then spewed them out at all possible
opportunities, and constantly said, "I didn't say that, I'm just
quoting", would I be guiltless?  I don't think so.

> That is why I sent another post quoter Dr. Lieberman, the individual who found
> ILa gave problems to the medical students, and unsurprisingly he was an
> Esperantist.

Who used the word "unsurprisingly"?  Was it "Robert J. Petry, C.L." who
chose that word, who gratuitously tacked it on to indicate that he
expects the worst from all Esperantists?  I think it was, and I think
that this and _many_ other messages RJP sends to this forum contains
gratuitous insults or other indications of the prejudiced mindset of a
bigot.  It's sickening.

Many of us have commented approvingly on the your enthusiasm and hard
work.  I still praise you for these, although I have occasionally
complained that the enthusiasm leads you to make claims you can't
support.  But you could be an enthusiastic supporter of Occidental
without spewing venom on everyone else, so that's no excuse for
displaying your bigotry in public.

I suppose it's the lack of a completely logical position in regards to
your choice of planlingvo which makes you fall back on insulting entire
groups, "the Esperantists", "the Interlinguaists", etc.  As I've
repeatedly pointed out, there _are_ pros & cons to the various
planlingvoj.  Some like one feature better, some another.  That's fine,
we can all respect that.  Elsewhere I've explained the reasons I chose
Esperanto.  Some may come to a similar conclusion, others may weight the
factors differently and reach a different position.  That's fine, too,
we can all respect that.

What we cannot respect is when someone puts down everyone who supports
some particular planned language.  To my mind, not only is such an
attitude reprehensible, but it strikes a blow at the raison d'etre of
this forum.  Here people talk about various planned languages, and
comparisons are best made when someone present knows what she's talking
about!  Therefore we need proponents of various planlingvoj here.  I
don't think I have to spell out why RJP's messages are therefore not
merely impolite and logically weak (overgeneralization doesn't make for
good proof), but are an actual detriment to this forum.  Since I try not
to overgeneralize, I won't speculate on _why_ RJP does this.  I suspect
that he himself would see his postings as "proof" of a conspiracy
against the forum!

> Yet, all the tested research by non-esperantists, or
> ex-esperantists, goes counter to these findings by Esperantists. For instance,
> the research by Hugon in California. He was an ex-esperantist, but to my
> knowledge was not an Occidentalist.

I don't accept your generalization above.  Please look up the word "all"
in the dictionary before you use it again.

And if you feel impelled to answer this message, consider giving the
details of Hugon's research.  (Fat chance of that, right?!  You'll
through in a few more innuendos first.)  Incidentally, real reseach
practically speaks for itself, the researcher Tries to be unbiased and
report the findings, although she will summarize the results/patterns
observed, give conclusions and may suggest further studies indicated.

> And, it is consistent that for some strange reason Esperantists can't find anyone
> who can easily read Occidental and/or Interlingua.

Again we have a clear indication of Bob Petry's prejudice against All
Esperantists.  Bob feels that All Esperantists are shifty characters,
plotting against the righteous cause of Occidental (nice of you to throw
in that "and/or Interlingua" [*]).  Every message he sends reeks of his
bigoted attitude.

* Interestingly enough, the "little experiment" that started this thread
purported to show that Occidental appeared to be much harder than
_Interlingua_ (yes, Interlingua!) to one particular person.  Of course,
one person does not make a statistical sample, and  I'm sure no one will
claim otherwise.  But isn't it interesting that we have something here
that _might_ show Interlingua as superior to Occidental on the very
"at-sight" grounds that seems to be Bob Petry's favorite argument for
Occidental?  And isn't it interesting that Bob Petry does _not_ say,
"Hey, the two sample texts were quite different, make that test a little
more fair and try again", nor does he say "Let's try this Occ vs. I-a
test on a large number of people from various backgrounds and see if
there really is a statistically significant result".  Oh, no!  Can
anyone guess what he does say?  He says, "I know it belabors a point.
but, he did admit to being an Esperantist".

Now I ask you, what does that statement mean?  To me it is an innuendo,
a put-down, a rabid generalization, an attempt to convince us that it is
ok to ignore anything said by someone who admits "to being an
Esperantist", that all Esperantists are liars anyway, so what can you
expect?

One more question:  What did I expect, what did we expect of Bob Petry?
Looking back on the past months of messages on auxlang, this sort of
"argument" is precisely what we might have expected from Bob.  It's
exactly what he always [**] does whenever facts don't bear out his pet
theories:  he attacks the person reporting the facts, or worse, he
attacks an entire group of people to whom that person has some
connection!

**  To be precise, I should say that I remember many occurrences such as
this.  But I will retract the word "always", there may have been
occasions where he was on vacation or something, and missed his
opportunity to answer in the manner which many of us now recognize as
typical of him.

Well, we can't blame the Occidental movement for Bob Petry.  I have
personally exchanged messages with very nice people who are learning
Occidental, as am I.

Learning languages is fun, and learning planned languages is fun and
easy.  But reading this tripe is not fun, and I suspect that if I keep
on doing so, I'll become soured not only on the writing of RJP, but on
Occidental (by association), and maybe even on planlingvoj as a whole.
So I will now exercise my sovereign right to killfile.  At least for
awhile I'll probably continue to read responses _to_ RJP, but if a
response has already been made I probably won't add another.

But Bob, lest you imagine that my silence means that I have begun to
agree with you, I tell you now that it doesn't.  I expect that you will
continue to make derogatory statements about all Esperantists and all
Interlinguaists, as you've done in the past.  If it were visible that
Lojban had suddenly picked up more supporters than Occidental, you'd
start slamming all Lojbanists, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
Bob, please stop repeating lies.  Repeating lies does not make them
true.  I tell you three times.

> Cordialmen,
> Bob, x+O~

Why do you sign "cordialmen"?  If you were honest you would admit that
you are only cordial to those who accept your rabid generalizations and
teach others to do likewise.

Adieu,

Ken Caviness [AIL enthusiast, and Esperantist!  (so RJP will assume I'm
always lying)]

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April 2004, Week 5
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February 2004, Week 1
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January 2004, Week 3
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
November 2003, Week 5
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September 2003, Week 5
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January 2003, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 3
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October 2001, Week 1
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September 2001, Week 1
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
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May 2001, Week 3
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
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April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
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January 2001, Week 3
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January 2001, Week 1
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