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AUXLANG  May 2000, Week 5

AUXLANG May 2000, Week 5

Subject:

Re: pseudo-pscience

From:

"Donald J. HARLOW" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

[log in to unmask]

Date:

Wed, 31 May 2000 08:33:00 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (96 lines)

Je 31 maj 00, je 7:01, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) skribis:

> All of which is a red herring.  Don wrote this post to dispute another
> claim of yours which turns out to be hogwash.  Don and several other
> Esperantists have said that they can read Occidental, so you had better
> drop that LIE from your regular tirade about "Esperantists".
> (Esperantists may dispute the readability of Occidental by the man in the
> street, but NOT by the typical Euroclone auxlangist.  It is I, the
> non-Esperantist, who finds it unreadable).
>
In all honesty, I suspect that not all Esperanto speakers would find
Occidental as transparent as _some_ Esperanto speakers do.
Esperanto, after all, is certainly no more a "Euroclone" than Italian
or Spanish, and a person who learns Esperanto in the same way
that people learn Italian or Spanish is going to encounter precisely
the same problems that speakers of Italian or Spanish do (probably
more, since Zamenhof took the liberty of "deforming" or "crippling"
many Romance roots, to use terms popular among our "naturalist"
friends...)

The advantage Esperanto gives in reading these languages is that if
you learn the language the way it was intended to be learned, you
learn to both synthesize and analyze words, and therefore you
learn to recognize them by their parts and by the roles they play. I
suspect that if it weren't for the insuperable differences in
vocabulary, a student of Lojban would find languages such as
Occidental far more comprehensible than would Joe Average.

The latter individual, of course, sees words and even whole phrases
as units, and they'd better look _exactly_ like what he's used to, or
they simply won't make any sense. This was the immediate trap
my mind fell into with the "queles have ... e posedent ..." phrase --
"posedent" is a typical third-person plural verb in the Romance
paradigm, and that's how I read it (also because the first part
started with a verb) until I remembered -- a learned fact, not
something one recognizes at sight -- that Occidental has
eschewed agreement of both adjectives and verbs, and this should
read "posede"; then I had to look up the fact that this was, in fact,
a present participle (*), which destroyed the parallelism between
the expressions linked by "e" -- a violation of stylistic principles.
Which obviously took some analysis; I simply read it _wrong_ the
first time because Occidental _isn't_ a 100% clone, and you have
to learn certain things before you can make sense out of it.

As to your reasoning about why I posted that posting -- yes. My
criticism of the _content_ of Bob's original (long ago) posting was, I
think, a good indication of the fact that I was able to read that
content, with some effort; obviously, Esperantist or not, I cannot
then turn around and state that Occidental is not readable at sight.
My argument is not that _nobody_ can read Occidental at sight,
but that you have to be a person with certain special interests, and
a rather specialized education, to do so. Auxlang, luckily for Bob,
teems with such people, if it could be said to teem with anything.
Bob would probably get similarly encouraging results if he invaded
the Romance Languages department of any major university. But if
you grabbed sixty people off the street of Denver, for instance, and
gave them the same passage to read -- followed by a quiz on the
content -- I suspect you'd find a far lower level of comprehension.
This was the result of Lieberman's little experiment with Interlingua,
and of Pierpaolo's even smaller experiment with both Interlingua
and Occidental.

I should add, at this point, that strictly in terms of time available to
me I would far rather invest that time in learning Occidental than in
learning, for instance, French, Spanish, Italian or German; the
language is regularized enough that I would certainly reach a
plateau of usability far sooner with Occidental than with any of the
other four languages mentioned (we won't even talk in the same
breath about Russian, Arabic or Japanese). Of course, then we
come to the question of motivation; three thousand hours invested
in Arabic, for instance, is going to give me a far greater return in
terms of opportunity to make use of the language than three
hundred hours invested in Occidental. All the at-sight readability in
the world makes no difference if the amount of material worth
reading in the language is miniscule, and all the facility of learning
in the world is worthless if there's no way to exercise what you've
learned. (**)

---

(*) I think French is the only language in which the present
participle ends with a naked -NT, and then only about a quarter of
the time; otherwise, it has to accord in both gender and number
with its associated noun. In Latin, of course, the naked form
(nominative singular) ends in -NS; the -NT- is always followed by
one of nine third-declension endings.

(**) For those who want _some_ exercise -- what's available -- a
good place to get it is http://www.egroups.com/group/occidental.
At worst, you'll see not only a bunch of familiar faces, but a couple
of new ones as well.


-- Don HARLOW
http://www.webcom.com/~donh/don/don.html

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