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AUXLANG  May 2000, Week 5

AUXLANG May 2000, Week 5

Subject:

Re: Lango on the web

From:

Zeno <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

International Auxiliary Languages <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 31 May 2000 11:34:34 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (127 lines)

On Tue, 30 May 2000 12:13:30 GMT, James Chandler wrote:

>A second message from Antony Alexander has revealed that the latest edition
>of the book Lango, which i mentioned a few days ago, is available on the
>web, at:
>
>http://www.webpal.org/essays/LangoA.htm

Thank you for that link (and thanks to Antony Alexander too).  I agree
that a lot of thought has gone into the book.  At first, I was
thinking that we should see some more examples of what the author had
determined the solution to be, but as I saw some of the few examples
therein, I realized that I often agree with people's theories but not
their solutions.  Perhaps I am better off when just given theory.

The Lord's Prayer in an orthography suggested by the Lango authors:

     .Qr .fAcar, FiK Art in hevan, hxlod bj .cy nqm. .cy kiNdam kum,
     .cy .wil bj dun, in ErT xz it iz in hevan. .giv us cis dq Qr dqli
     bred, xnd fRrgiv us Qr trespAsiz, xz wj fRrgiv cem cxt trespAs
     agenst us. .xnd ljd us nDt intY temptqMan, but dilivar us frDm
     jvil. .Amen."

I don't think that Klingon has anything on this "simplified" English.
I understand that the author's theory is that a modified English can
work as an international language only with spelling reform and that
spelling reform will only be accepted if a different alphabet is used.
<sarcasm> Oh! what a wonderful problem solving solution to the
problems of English for the world! </sarcasm>  It is then absolutely
amazing to me that, after having suggested that people should learn a
new alphabet in addition to an international language, the authors
presume that it would be too much effort for people to reconfigure
their QWERTY keyboards (which are not even the same internationally).

This problem led me to search for one of the author's references,
which was to Kingsley Read's alphabet, which won George Bernard Shaw's
postmortem competition for the best 40-character phonetic alphabet.

Shaw had written the following (not from the Lango book):

     To realize the annual difference in favour of a forty-two letter
     phonetic alphabet . . . you must multiply the number of minutes
     in the year, the number of people in the world who are
     continuously writing English words, casting types, manufacturing
     printing and writing machines, by which time the total figure
     will have become so astronomical that you will realize that the
     cost of spelling even one sound with two letters has cost us
     centuries of unnecessary labour.  A new British 42 letter
     alphabet would pay for itself a million time over not only in
     hours but in moments.  When this is grasped, all the useless
     twaddle about enough and cough and laugh and simplified
     spelling will be dropped, and the economists and statisticians
     will be set to work to gather in the orthographic Golconda.

I was amazed to discover that this winner (Shavian)[1] cannot be
written in script, even though Shaw favored Pitmann shorthand while of
this world!  I think that Shaw must have rolled over in his grave . .
. where is the savings in picking up the pen between characters?

I then began a search for any script created for English or any
conlangs at all which could be written without picking up the pen as
when writing shorthand but could find none.  I couldn't even find any
created scripts which allowed flowing characters with some extra
strokes such as dotting 'i's, crossing 't's, or adding supersigns.

All of this, to me, is an exercise in futility anyway, as you know
from my many examples in this forum about the trials and tribulations
of spelling reform.  The latest addition to my flawed organic data
bank regarding spelling resulted from recently reading that one of the
main discoveries of modern linguistics is that morphemes are often
stored in memory in a different form than what is actually pronounced.
In the Lango book the authors constantly write 'spelt' which causes me
momentary pause each time I read it.  Although I might say 'spelt' and
'slapt', my gray matter understands 'spelled' and 'slapped', no
different than for 'jogged' and 'sobbed' which are 'jogd' and 'sobd'.)

If the authors tried to show some more examples in the Lango book of
how their phonetic alphabet worked, I believe that many more problems
would become evident to them, even only using their proposed 55 or so
sounds.  People will _not_ pronounce it the way it is written, even
the same as Ido is pronounced differently by different people and by
the same person for different sounds when following other sounds.
Have you listened to the tape from the Ido book service?  Each person
pronounces Ido differently (as I'm sure they do with any language,
artificial or not).  In just the word 'irga' from one reader of the
Dhammapada, the 'i' can change to 'e', 'o', or 'u' and the 'r' to
nothing, 'l', 'w', some sort of glottal stop, etc..

Only a few proposed IALs since Volapuk have tried to rid language of
the 'r' because some nationalities have trouble distinguishing 'r'
from 'l'.  Certainly, we cannot include the thousands of phonemes from
all languages of the world, and certainly we cannot use only those
which are in every language (someone posted that number here a while
ago, wasn't it like 5 or something?).  Perhaps Talmey was on the right
path when he changed the 'z' of Gloro back to 's' in words such as
'roso' and 'usar', and when he added the 's' back into words such as
'scienco' and 'descensar'.  The words look more familiar and people
are going to pronounce them how their going to pronounce them anyway
('rozo', 'uzar', etc.).  An English may pronounce 'scienco' as
'sientso', an Italian perhaps 'shientso', and a German or Russian as
'stsientso' ... their going to do this anyway, so you may as well keep
the spelling more recognizable.

Anyway, I think my point was that although I agree that a lot of work
went into the Lango book, the facts are that the authors are
recommending simplified English with phonetic spelling as an IAL.
Although I found the book and their reasoning in it to be interesting,
there's hardly anything new under the Sun here, is there?  (I think
that was my point but I lost track of it about 14 paragraphs ago...
perhaps my point was that I can type really long messages?)

- Zeno

[1]  An excellent site on the Shavian script is at
http://www.shavian.f9.co.uk/ , and some more of Kingsley Read's
alphabets can be found at
http://members.aol.com/RSRICHMOND/quickscript.html .


"It is only fair to mention that many mailing list readers believe
they in fact have a practical test for an obnoxious signature: (1) if
it's used in other-language forums, it's wrong; (2) if it's used more
than one month or if Zeno never understood it anyway, changing it
often and to something interesting, informative, or lighthearted is
correct"  - Zeno, 'On the "reading the same thing over and over"
theory'

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