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CONLANG  June 2000, Week 2

CONLANG June 2000, Week 2

Subject:

Re: Kench declensions (long), was Two YANCs: Para-British

From:

Christophe Grandsire <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Constructed Languages List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:49:25 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (216 lines)

At 14:46 08/06/00 -0400, you wrote:
>As I already reported recently, Kench is a language that has evolved
>from one of the Old English dialects, and most of its phonetic
>development followed the lines of the evolution of English rather
>strictly. One of the funny things with Kench (at least for me) was to
>see how different from English it can become, despite the above.
>

I understand the fun of it very well :) .

>Nominal groups in Kench normally include article or another
>determinative. Nouns without a determinative (except anthroponyms
>in Sg.) occur mostly in fixed collocations that resemble compounds.
>

It looks a lot like French then :) . In French too nominal groups appear
almost always with a determinative of some kind.

>1) Substantives and adjectives with definite article:
>
>a) Sg.:
>     ‘the good day’ ‘the foreign language’ ‘the long arrow’
>
>Nom. ze  goode  day   ŝet  vremŝ   rerd    zhe long    streal
>Gen. ŝes gooden days  ŝets vremŝen rerds   ŝer longhen streal
>Dat. ŝem gooden day   ŝem  vremŝen rerd    ŝer longhen streal
>Ac.1 ŝon gooden day   ŝets vremŝen rerds   ŝo  longhen streal
>Ac.2 ŝon gooden day   ŝet  vremŝ   rerd    ŝo  longhen streal
>

Can you give a hint of the pronunciation? I suppose the thorn stands for
/T/ (do you have edh for /D/? or only thorn for both?), and <e> in an
ending stands for /@/ (by comparison with other Germanic langs), but are
the diphtongs the same as English? and the <h> in <zhe> and <longhen>, what
does it stand for?

I suppose also that "day" is an example of a masculine declension, "rerd"
of feminine declension and "streal" of a neuter declension. Am I right or
completely out? :))

>b) Pl.:
>   ‘the good days’ ‘the foreign languages’ ‘the long arrows’
>
>Nom. ŝo  gooden days  ŝo   vremŝen rerd    ŝo  longhen strealen
>Gen. ŝor gooden day   ŝor  vremŝen rerd    ŝor longhen strealen
>Dat. ŝom goodom daym  ŝom  vremŝom rerdom  ŝom longhom strealom
>Ac.1 ŝor gooden day   ŝor  vremŝen rerd    ŝor longhen strealen
>Ac.2 ŝo  gooden days  ŝo   vremŝen rerd    ŝo  longhen strealen
>

Interesting that plural is not marked on nouns in general (except in a few
cases). It's quite different from German at least.

>
>2) Substantives and adjectives with indefinite article
>(Sg. only):
>     ‘a good day’    ‘a foreign language’  ‘a long arrow’
>
>Nom. o   goode  day    o   vremŝ   rerd    o  long    streal
>Gen. ons goods  days   ons vremŝes rerds   or longher streal
>Dat. om  goodom day    om  vremŝom rerd    or longher streal
>Ac.1 en  gooden day    ons vremŝes rerds   on long    streal
>Ac.2 en  gooden day    o   vremŝ   rerd    on long    streal
>

Interesting strong declension. Kench really looks more Germanic than English.

>In Pl., the indefinite article is not used. The construction with
>partitive article (see below) is used instead:
>
>‘(some) good days’ ‘(some)foreign languages’ ‘(some) long arrows’
>
>Nom. ot    gooder day  ot    vremŝer rerd  ot    longher strealen
>Gen. ots   gooder day  ots   vremŝer rerd  ots   longher strealen
>Dat. ottom gooder day  ottom vremŝer rerd  ottom longher strealen
>Ac.1 ots   gooder day  ots   vremŝer rerd  ots   longher strealen
>Ac.2 ot    gooder day  ot    vremŝer rerd  ot    longher strealen
>
>
>3) The partitive article has neither numbers nor genders (formally,
>it is always in Sg.n.). The substantives and adjectives immediately
>follow it and are always in Gen.:
>

That's a nice idea, looks a bit like French again ("un peu DE vin",
"beaucoup DE gens", for instance). Was French a source of inspiration for
you or is it plain coincidence?

>    ‘(some) white snow’  ‘(some) fresh water’ ‘(some) black soil’
>
>Nom. ot    whites znaws  ot    vreshes weters  ot    zwarter yerŝ
>Gen. ots   whites znaws  ots   vreshes weters  ots   zwarter yerŝ
>Dat. ottom whites znaws  ottom vreshes weters  ottom zwarter yerŝ
>Ac.1 ots   whites znaws  ots   vreshes weters  ots   zwarter yerŝ
>Ac.2 ot    whites znaws  ot    vreshes weters  ot    zwarter yerŝ
>
>(examples in Pl. are given above)
>
>
>4) Some remarks on the declension of adjectives.
>
>The forms of adjectives that combine with the definite article are
>also used with demonstrative determiners. This paradigm is termed
>‘weak declension’.
>
>The other, ‘strong’ declension is used, besides indefinite article,
>with some other indefinite determiners like _eany_ ‘some, any’. The
>full Pl. paradigm is as follows:
>
>    ‘some good days, foreign languages, long arrows’
>
>Nom. eany   goode  days,  vremŝ   rerd,    long    strealen
>Gen. eanier gooder day,   vremŝer rerd,    longher strealen
>Dat. eanim  goodom daym,  vremŝom rerdom,  longhom strealom
>Ac.1 eanier gooder day,   vremŝer rerd,    longher strealen
>Ac.2 eany   goode  days,  vremŝ   rerd,    long    strealen
>
>When a substantive has several adjectives with no coordinating
>connection felt between the latter, only the first adjective can have
>the ‘strong’ forms, while others follow the ‘weak’ declension, e. g.:
>
>om goodom warmen day  ‘for a good warm day’
>ot vokener zmealen men  ‘some evil mean men’
>

Quite interesting.

>Substantivized adjectives follow the regular substantive declensions
>for each gender.
>
>
>5) Some comments on the substantive declensions.
>
>The above paradigms only represent the most regular types for each
>gender. Some m. and f. nouns alter their stem in Pl. (e. g. _ze man_
>‘the man’ - _ŝo men_, _ze booke ‘the book’ - _ŝo beech_), some neutra
>take on the Pl. suffix _-er_ (sometimes with vowel change: _ŝet lam_
>‘the lamb’ - _ŝo lemmer_), and some masculines take on the f. endings
>in Pl. (e. g. _ze time_ - _ŝo timen_).
>

Like French "le grand amour" vs. "les grandEs amours"? (amour - "love" - is
masculine in singular and feminine in plural. There are a few very rare
words like that in French. But generally one of their number is hardly
used) Or do they only take the feminine endings and keep their masculine
gender? (I'd think that analogy would tend to make them really feminine in
plural)

>The personal names (Sg. only) that are used without article are declined
>as follows:
>
>     Feminine  Masculine
>
>Nom.  Mary      Peter
>Gen.  Marin     Peters
>Dat.  Marin     Petern
>Ac.1  Marin     Petern
>Ac.2  Marin     Petern
>
>
>6) Some pronouns:
>
>     ‘I’  ‘thou’ ‘he’  ‘it’   ‘she’ ‘we’  ‘you’  ‘they’ ‘this’
>
>Nom. idge  ŝouw  hee   hit     hy   wee    yee    hise   ŝiss
>Gen. mine  ŝine  hees  hits    har  ouwer  yewer  hir    ŝisses
>Dat. meem  ŝeem  heem  hittom  har  ouzom  yewm   him    ŝissom
>Ac.1 mee   ŝee   heen  hits    hay  ouz    yew    hir    ŝisses
>Ac.2 mee   ŝee   heen  hit     hay  ouz    yew    hise   ŝiss
>

Wow! Could you give a hint for their pronunciation?

>7) Possessive pronouns coincide in Nom. with the Gen. of the respective
>personal pronouns. They normally follow the substantive. Possessives of
>the 3rd person are indeclinable. Possessives of 1st and 2nd person are
>mainly declined like ‘strong’ adjectives, but have a few contracted
>forms: _mime_ and _ŝime_ instead of *minom and *ŝinom, _ur_ and _yur_
>instead of *ouwerer and *yewerer.
>
>8) Case usage.
>
>Nom. and Dat. are used... hmm... as Nom. and Dat. Dat. can also follow
>certain prepositions (some of them can alternatively be used, with a
>difference in meaning, with Ac.2).
>
>Gen. is used with the partitive article, with some prepositions, in
>some types of quantitative and distributive constructions, and in
>numerous fixed collocations.
>
>Ac.1 (or simply ‘accusative’) is the case of direct object.
>
>Ac.2 (or ‘the old accusative’, or ‘directional’) is only used with
>certain prepositions.
>

Strange distinction between two accusatives... Where do they come from
historically speaking?

>Nom. and Ac.1 never combine with primary prepositions.
>
>
>Five cases, three genders, three articles - as promised. Historical
>comments are available upon request.
>

Yes please! Especially about the evolution of the case system.

                                                Christophe Grandsire
                                                |Sela Jemufan Atlinan C.G.

"Reality is just another point of view."

homepage : http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr
(ou : http://www.bde.espci.fr/homepages/Christophe.Grandsire/index.html)

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July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
June 2007, Week 4
June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
May 2007, Week 4
May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
November 2006, Week 4
November 2006, Week 3
November 2006, Week 2
November 2006, Week 1
October 2006, Week 5
October 2006, Week 4
October 2006, Week 3
October 2006, Week 2
October 2006, Week 1
September 2006, Week 5
September 2006, Week 4
September 2006, Week 3
September 2006, Week 2
September 2006, Week 1
August 2006, Week 5
August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
July 2006, Week 5
July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
May 2006, Week 4
May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
December 2004, Week 4
December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
January 2004, Week 2
January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
October 2003, Week 5
October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
June 2003, Week 4
June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
December 2002, Week 4
December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
November 2001, Week 4
November 2001, Week 3
November 2001, Week 2
November 2001, Week 1
October 2001, Week 5
October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
September 2001, Week 4
September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
August 2001, Week 4
August 2001, Week 3
August 2001, Week 2
August 2001, Week 1
July 2001, Week 5
July 2001, Week 4
July 2001, Week 3
July 2001, Week 2
July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
June 2001, Week 4
June 2001, Week 3
June 2001, Week 2
June 2001, Week 1
May 2001, Week 5
May 2001, Week 4
May 2001, Week 3
May 2001, Week 2
May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
January 2001, Week 4
January 2001, Week 3
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January 2001, Week 1
December 2000, Week 5
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October 2000, Week 3
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October 2000, Week 1
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June 2000, Week 3
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June 2000, Week 1
May 2000, Week 5
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May 2000, Week 2
May 2000, Week 1
April 2000, Week 5
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April 2000, Week 3
April 2000, Week 2
April 2000, Week 1
March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
January 2000, Week 5
January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
January 2000, Week 2
January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
December 1999, Week 4
December 1999, Week 3
December 1999, Week 2
December 1999, Week 1
November 1999, Week 5
November 1999, Week 4
November 1999, Week 3
November 1999, Week 2
November 1999, Week 1
October 1999, Week 5
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October 1999, Week 1
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September 1999, Week 1
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July 1999, Week 3
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July 1999, Week 1
June 1999, Week 5
June 1999, Week 4
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June 1999, Week 1
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April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
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March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
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January 1999, Week 3
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January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
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November 1998, Week 1
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September 1998, Week 3

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