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CONLANG  June 2000, Week 4

CONLANG June 2000, Week 4

Subject:

Re: CONLANG Digest - 20 Jun 2000

From:

Muke Tever <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Muke Tever <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 22 Jun 2000 03:36:05 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (257 lines)

> From:    Robert Hailman <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: English: Thou
>
> > Or /D@/, which I believe is used in some English dialects.  Of course,
> > /Du/ was the Old/Middle English pronunciation, before the Great Vowel
> > Shift diphthongized it.
>
> That's what I thought originally, but then wouldn't "you" become /jau/
> at the same time? Unless originally it was pronounced /jo/, or "thou"
> was stressed and "you" was unstressed. But before the Great Vowel Shift,
> English spelling of vowels was much more regular then it is now, no?
>
> Maybe I should just pronounce "you" /jau/ out of spite.

Of course, "you" becomes /j@/ also in a lot of contexts...

> From:    Robert Hailman <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: [Fwd: Re: Conlang Flags (was "Digest-- Flags, millionaire,
>          etc. (mostly OT)")]
>
> Oops, I accidentally sent this to Muke Tever him (her?) self rather than
> the whole list. Oops.

HIM!  I'm a he!

> From:    Barry Garcia <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Digest-- Flags, millionaire, etc. (mostly OT)
>
> You can see the design here:
> http://student.monterey.edu/dh/garciabarryjames/world/language/flag.gif

Nice..  [gotta a lot of design work of my own to catch up on, grrr...]

> From:    Barry Garcia <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Distinction between adjectives and adverbs
>
> I've been wondering, is it necessary to have a distinction between
> adjectives and adverbs? If so, why? In Saalangal i've been treating the
> two the same, and not using any suffix or whatever to make a distinction.

It's probably not "necessary" necessary.  My conlangs tend to conflate the
two into a general 'modifier' class.

> From:    Danny Wier <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Digest-- Flags, millionaire, etc. (mostly OT)
>
> >From: Muke Tever <[log in to unmask]>
>
> >Well, except that the "syllabic R" in English is a rhotacized schwa (in
> >XSAMPA /@`/ and /3`/... is 3 right?).
> >So <curb> is /k3`b/.
>
> I wonder why X-SAMPA uses the retroflex mark with schwa (and /3/, the
> mid-open schwa).  For me, the syllabic R is more retracted (i.e.
> semi-pharyngealized) than retroflex.  Mandarin "er" is retroflex.

Well, it's supposed to be the "rhotacized" mark... maybe I used the wrong
one.

> Orcs: white skull and crossbones and red dagger on black background.  What
> else could it be?

Couchant regardant on a field vert, a fluffy pink bunny?  ;)

> From:    BP Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: English: Thou
>
> BTW: what about using You /jau/ (note Capitalization) as a (representation
> of) an honorific?

Well, /jau/ is pretty much characteristic of a cry of pain..(no, wait,
that's /y{u/...)
But I think in normal use capitalized pronouns (other than 'I' of course)
are already used to refer to God, or in titles like Your Honor.

> From:    BP Jonsson <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Millionaire (was Re: CHAT: Vexillology and games (was:
Re:Flag of
>          England))
>
> Very annoying nonetheless, especially since the guy in the swedish show is
> a newsreader and used to take himself seriously.

"the guy is a newsreader"... (does he support killfiles?)
That reminded me of some anecdote about the semantic change of 'typewriter'
from the operator of the machine to the machine itself (something about the
typewriter getting up from her desk and walking out the door...)

> And the questions aren't
> that life and death important as "Is that your final answer?  Are you
> sure?" suggests.

Well, I dunno--the music strikes me as pretty frightening as well, as though
when you get it wrong they take you into a back room and tie you to a table
and flay you or something.  Er, just really dungeony.

> From:    Dan Jones <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: English: Thou
>
> As to the Great Vowel Shift, /u:/ could become either /au/ or /ju:/, which
> is why tune is pronounced here in the UK as /tju:n/, from an earlier long
> vowel.

I was going over some words (one of my latest projects is studying what
makes _regular_ spelling before I try to 'fix' it) and I noticed that (in
non-/tju:n/ English anyway) the /j/ in "long U" disappears pretty regularly
before r, l, and the dental/palatals (d/t/n/T/D/j/dZ/tS...) "dune tune rune
june nuke dew new" but not others (m/p/k/...) "cute puke mute huge mew pew".

Anyway, so I'm guessing those are the choices for old /u:/ we here still
wouldn't have /Dju:/ even if it had gone that way.

[I'm not entirely sure about the pronunciation of <u> yet.  I'm still only
at <a> (monosyllables with a vowel spelled 'a' or some digraph beginning
with 'a').]

> From:    Roger Mills <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: OT CHAT:  Asperger's syndrome
>
> Apparently the good people in pharmacology are looking for a remedy.  Just
> what this poor world needs, a pill to suppress intelligence.

Asperger's is _supposed_ to be a low-grade form of autism.  Of course that
doesn't mean it won't become the next ADD-fad diagnosis...

> From:    Jim Grossmann <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Distinction between adjectives and adverbs
>
> Hi, all,
>
> AFAIK, you don't need a morphological distinction;   adverbs and
adjectives
> can have the same endings or lack thereof.   I think there always has to
be
> some syntactic distinction, though, between modifying a noun and modifying
a
> verb.    That is, unless the language in question happens to be Allnoun.
> :-)

Only problem is adverbs aren't just "modifying a verb" (in English anyway).
Adjectives modify nouns, but adverbs modify verbs, adjectives, and other
adverbs (i.e., everything else).

> From:    Fior Avant <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: English THOU
>
> >Actually I think many people, perhaps as a combination of the archaism of
> >"thou" and its use towards God, have reanalyzed "thou" as a _formal_
form.
> >I know that's what I thought, till a video game taught me otherwise.
>
> Yes, and so it's wrong to use THOU as a respectful term. If you said,
> towards a noble, THOU he would probably have you arrested :-) THOU shows
NO
> (okay, a little) respect but a "close relationship" to someone.

Well, that's getting prescriptivist ;)  I'd wager most Americans (at least
who havent studied older English) think of "thou" in the formal register.

> >Yeah, that's definitely how's it's seen now. In Star Wars (Episode 6, I
> >think?), Darth Vader asks the Emperor, "What is thy bidding, my master?"
> >- definitely a reversal of the original usage!
>
> I didn't watch "Star Wars" (yeah... I know what I missed) but if they
> used THOU/THY/THEE/THINE in that way you tell, that was a big and
unfortunate
> mistake. Like only hollywood can make :-]]]]]

Us'n's don't speak the language =)

> From:    Robert Hailman <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: English: Thou
>
> > BTW: what about using You /jau/ (note Capitalization) as a
(representation
> > of) an honorific?
>
> That's a good idea. That way we can ditch terms like "Your excellency"
> and just say /jau/. It might be too late, though, I kicked of using
> /jau/ to replace /ju/ today.
>
> Or maybe /jau/ for the plural, /ju/ for the singular? Just a thought.

Well, <yall> is something like /jau/ already, for those people whose velar
l's become w or silent...which isn't too rare an accent around here.

> From:    Joe Mondello <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Icelandic language (was Re: World Pidgin Suffices)
>
> Danny Wier gov ra:
>
> > Yeah, I should've thought of it... Verner's Law has [T] > [D].  So what
do
> >  you call it when two phonemes, such as /T/ and /d/ in Icelandic, share
an
> >  allophone, [D]?
>
> neutralization, isn't it? like in English when /t/ and /d/ are allophones
of
> that flap (whats its symbol again?).

I think it's the "r" without the hook thingy, /4/ in X-SAMPA.

> From:    Danny Wier <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: English THOU
>
> >From: Fior Avant <[log in to unmask]>
>
> >I didn't watch "Star Wars" (yeah... I know what I missed) but if they
used
> >THOU/THY/THEE/THINE in that way you tell, that was a big and unfortunate
> >mistake. Like only hollywood can make :-]]]]]
>
> "I... loveth thee."  (Cyan, the swordsman from Final Fantasy VI, an RPG
for
> the Super Nintendo of old)

ROFL!  "Mr. Thou!"
Hm, did Cyan use "thou" on everybody, or did he "you" the king of Doma?

> From:    Adrian Morgan <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: OT CHAT: Asperger's syndrome
>
> And put me in a room with lots of people talking to
> each other all over the place and I just gotta escape.
> Sensory overload has all sorts of nasty effects on my brain,
> and all I can do is withdraw into a corner.

Ackackackackack.  I *hate* when that happens.

> But such a confrontation is _painful_ to an asperger's person.

Wrrk...

> From:    Nik Taylor <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Digest-- Flags, millionaire, etc. (mostly OT)
>
> > An injunction against "themself" may be speaking from a grammatical POV
that
> > doesn't recognize a "singular they".
>
> Well, "themself" does exist.  I know because I've heard it on several
> occasions, can't think of any specifically right now.

Well, yes, I mean that if your orthogrammy dictates that "singular they" is
taboo, then "themself" would have to go with it.  But lots of people use
"singular they" and I suppose "themself" is the natural followafter.  Errr,
consequent.  But I expect a lot of "singular themselves" as well (at least,
certainly more than "singular yourselves"...)

And yet again I've been off-topic for the whole day.  I need motivation :\
I have drawings, programs, webpages, animations for school, work, _and_
conlangs to do, plus trying to get everything ready for my next year at
university...  Uchk.

     *Muke!

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October 2008, Week 4
October 2008, Week 3
October 2008, Week 2
October 2008, Week 1
September 2008, Week 5
September 2008, Week 4
September 2008, Week 3
September 2008, Week 2
September 2008, Week 1
August 2008, Week 5
August 2008, Week 4
August 2008, Week 3
August 2008, Week 2
August 2008, Week 1
July 2008, Week 5
July 2008, Week 4
July 2008, Week 3
July 2008, Week 2
July 2008, Week 1
June 2008, Week 5
June 2008, Week 4
June 2008, Week 3
June 2008, Week 2
June 2008, Week 1
May 2008, Week 5
May 2008, Week 4
May 2008, Week 3
May 2008, Week 2
May 2008, Week 1
April 2008, Week 5
April 2008, Week 4
April 2008, Week 3
April 2008, Week 2
April 2008, Week 1
March 2008, Week 5
March 2008, Week 4
March 2008, Week 3
March 2008, Week 2
March 2008, Week 1
February 2008, Week 5
February 2008, Week 4
February 2008, Week 3
February 2008, Week 2
February 2008, Week 1
January 2008, Week 5
January 2008, Week 4
January 2008, Week 3
January 2008, Week 2
January 2008, Week 1
December 2007, Week 5
December 2007, Week 4
December 2007, Week 3
December 2007, Week 2
December 2007, Week 1
November 2007, Week 5
November 2007, Week 4
November 2007, Week 3
November 2007, Week 2
November 2007, Week 1
October 2007, Week 5
October 2007, Week 4
October 2007, Week 3
October 2007, Week 2
October 2007, Week 1
September 2007, Week 5
September 2007, Week 4
September 2007, Week 3
September 2007, Week 2
September 2007, Week 1
August 2007, Week 5
August 2007, Week 4
August 2007, Week 3
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August 2007, Week 1
July 2007, Week 5
July 2007, Week 4
July 2007, Week 3
July 2007, Week 2
July 2007, Week 1
June 2007, Week 5
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June 2007, Week 3
June 2007, Week 2
June 2007, Week 1
May 2007, Week 5
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May 2007, Week 3
May 2007, Week 2
May 2007, Week 1
April 2007, Week 5
April 2007, Week 4
April 2007, Week 3
April 2007, Week 2
April 2007, Week 1
March 2007, Week 5
March 2007, Week 4
March 2007, Week 3
March 2007, Week 2
March 2007, Week 1
February 2007, Week 4
February 2007, Week 3
February 2007, Week 2
February 2007, Week 1
January 2007, Week 5
January 2007, Week 4
January 2007, Week 3
January 2007, Week 2
January 2007, Week 1
December 2006, Week 5
December 2006, Week 4
December 2006, Week 3
December 2006, Week 2
December 2006, Week 1
November 2006, Week 5
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November 2006, Week 3
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November 2006, Week 1
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October 2006, Week 3
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October 2006, Week 1
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September 2006, Week 1
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August 2006, Week 4
August 2006, Week 3
August 2006, Week 2
August 2006, Week 1
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July 2006, Week 4
July 2006, Week 3
July 2006, Week 2
July 2006, Week 1
June 2006, Week 5
June 2006, Week 4
June 2006, Week 3
June 2006, Week 2
June 2006, Week 1
May 2006, Week 5
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May 2006, Week 3
May 2006, Week 2
May 2006, Week 1
April 2006, Week 5
April 2006, Week 4
April 2006, Week 3
April 2006, Week 2
April 2006, Week 1
March 2006, Week 5
March 2006, Week 4
March 2006, Week 3
March 2006, Week 2
March 2006, Week 1
February 2006, Week 4
February 2006, Week 3
February 2006, Week 2
February 2006, Week 1
January 2006, Week 5
January 2006, Week 4
January 2006, Week 3
January 2006, Week 2
January 2006, Week 1
December 2005, Week 5
December 2005, Week 4
December 2005, Week 3
December 2005, Week 2
December 2005, Week 1
November 2005, Week 5
November 2005, Week 4
November 2005, Week 3
November 2005, Week 2
November 2005, Week 1
October 2005, Week 5
October 2005, Week 4
October 2005, Week 3
October 2005, Week 2
October 2005, Week 1
September 2005, Week 5
September 2005, Week 4
September 2005, Week 3
September 2005, Week 2
September 2005, Week 1
August 2005, Week 5
August 2005, Week 4
August 2005, Week 3
August 2005, Week 2
August 2005, Week 1
July 2005, Week 5
July 2005, Week 4
July 2005, Week 3
July 2005, Week 2
July 2005, Week 1
June 2005, Week 5
June 2005, Week 4
June 2005, Week 3
June 2005, Week 2
June 2005, Week 1
May 2005, Week 5
May 2005, Week 4
May 2005, Week 3
May 2005, Week 2
May 2005, Week 1
April 2005, Week 5
April 2005, Week 4
April 2005, Week 3
April 2005, Week 2
April 2005, Week 1
March 2005, Week 5
March 2005, Week 4
March 2005, Week 3
March 2005, Week 2
March 2005, Week 1
February 2005, Week 4
February 2005, Week 3
February 2005, Week 2
February 2005, Week 1
January 2005, Week 5
January 2005, Week 4
January 2005, Week 3
January 2005, Week 2
January 2005, Week 1
December 2004, Week 5
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December 2004, Week 3
December 2004, Week 2
December 2004, Week 1
November 2004, Week 5
November 2004, Week 4
November 2004, Week 3
November 2004, Week 2
November 2004, Week 1
October 2004, Week 5
October 2004, Week 4
October 2004, Week 3
October 2004, Week 2
October 2004, Week 1
September 2004, Week 5
September 2004, Week 4
September 2004, Week 3
September 2004, Week 2
September 2004, Week 1
August 2004, Week 5
August 2004, Week 4
August 2004, Week 3
August 2004, Week 2
August 2004, Week 1
July 2004, Week 5
July 2004, Week 4
July 2004, Week 3
July 2004, Week 2
July 2004, Week 1
June 2004, Week 5
June 2004, Week 4
June 2004, Week 3
June 2004, Week 2
June 2004, Week 1
May 2004, Week 5
May 2004, Week 4
May 2004, Week 3
May 2004, Week 2
May 2004, Week 1
April 2004, Week 5
April 2004, Week 4
April 2004, Week 3
April 2004, Week 2
April 2004, Week 1
March 2004, Week 5
March 2004, Week 4
March 2004, Week 3
March 2004, Week 2
March 2004, Week 1
February 2004, Week 5
February 2004, Week 4
February 2004, Week 3
February 2004, Week 2
February 2004, Week 1
January 2004, Week 5
January 2004, Week 4
January 2004, Week 3
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January 2004, Week 1
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December 2003, Week 3
December 2003, Week 2
December 2003, Week 1
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November 2003, Week 4
November 2003, Week 3
November 2003, Week 2
November 2003, Week 1
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October 2003, Week 4
October 2003, Week 3
October 2003, Week 2
October 2003, Week 1
September 2003, Week 5
September 2003, Week 4
September 2003, Week 3
September 2003, Week 2
September 2003, Week 1
August 2003, Week 5
August 2003, Week 4
August 2003, Week 3
August 2003, Week 2
August 2003, Week 1
July 2003, Week 5
July 2003, Week 4
July 2003, Week 3
July 2003, Week 2
July 2003, Week 1
June 2003, Week 5
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June 2003, Week 3
June 2003, Week 2
June 2003, Week 1
May 2003, Week 5
May 2003, Week 4
May 2003, Week 3
May 2003, Week 2
May 2003, Week 1
April 2003, Week 5
April 2003, Week 4
April 2003, Week 3
April 2003, Week 2
April 2003, Week 1
March 2003, Week 5
March 2003, Week 4
March 2003, Week 3
March 2003, Week 2
March 2003, Week 1
February 2003, Week 4
February 2003, Week 3
February 2003, Week 2
February 2003, Week 1
January 2003, Week 5
January 2003, Week 4
January 2003, Week 3
January 2003, Week 2
January 2003, Week 1
December 2002, Week 5
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December 2002, Week 3
December 2002, Week 2
December 2002, Week 1
November 2002, Week 5
November 2002, Week 4
November 2002, Week 3
November 2002, Week 2
November 2002, Week 1
October 2002, Week 5
October 2002, Week 4
October 2002, Week 3
October 2002, Week 2
October 2002, Week 1
September 2002, Week 5
September 2002, Week 4
September 2002, Week 3
September 2002, Week 2
September 2002, Week 1
August 2002, Week 5
August 2002, Week 4
August 2002, Week 3
August 2002, Week 2
August 2002, Week 1
July 2002, Week 5
July 2002, Week 4
July 2002, Week 3
July 2002, Week 2
July 2002, Week 1
June 2002, Week 5
June 2002, Week 4
June 2002, Week 3
June 2002, Week 2
June 2002, Week 1
May 2002, Week 5
May 2002, Week 4
May 2002, Week 3
May 2002, Week 2
May 2002, Week 1
April 2002, Week 5
April 2002, Week 4
April 2002, Week 3
April 2002, Week 2
April 2002, Week 1
March 2002, Week 5
March 2002, Week 4
March 2002, Week 3
March 2002, Week 2
March 2002, Week 1
February 2002, Week 4
February 2002, Week 3
February 2002, Week 2
February 2002, Week 1
January 2002, Week 5
January 2002, Week 4
January 2002, Week 3
January 2002, Week 2
January 2002, Week 1
December 2001, Week 5
December 2001, Week 4
December 2001, Week 3
December 2001, Week 2
December 2001, Week 1
November 2001, Week 5
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November 2001, Week 3
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November 2001, Week 1
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October 2001, Week 4
October 2001, Week 3
October 2001, Week 2
October 2001, Week 1
September 2001, Week 5
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September 2001, Week 3
September 2001, Week 2
September 2001, Week 1
August 2001, Week 5
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August 2001, Week 3
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July 2001, Week 1
June 2001, Week 5
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June 2001, Week 1
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May 2001, Week 1
April 2001, Week 5
April 2001, Week 4
April 2001, Week 3
April 2001, Week 2
April 2001, Week 1
March 2001, Week 5
March 2001, Week 4
March 2001, Week 3
March 2001, Week 2
March 2001, Week 1
February 2001, Week 4
February 2001, Week 3
February 2001, Week 2
February 2001, Week 1
January 2001, Week 5
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January 2001, Week 3
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March 2000, Week 5
March 2000, Week 4
March 2000, Week 3
March 2000, Week 2
March 2000, Week 1
February 2000, Week 5
February 2000, Week 4
February 2000, Week 3
February 2000, Week 2
February 2000, Week 1
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January 2000, Week 4
January 2000, Week 3
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January 2000, Week 1
December 1999, Week 5
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December 1999, Week 3
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December 1999, Week 1
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November 1999, Week 3
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October 1999, Week 1
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September 1999, Week 1
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August 1999, Week 3
August 1999, Week 2
August 1999, Week 1
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July 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 5
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June 1999, Week 3
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June 1999, Week 1
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May 1999, Week 3
May 1999, Week 2
May 1999, Week 1
April 1999, Week 5
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April 1999, Week 2
April 1999, Week 1
March 1999, Week 5
March 1999, Week 4
March 1999, Week 3
March 1999, Week 2
March 1999, Week 1
February 1999, Week 5
February 1999, Week 4
February 1999, Week 3
February 1999, Week 2
February 1999, Week 1
January 1999, Week 5
January 1999, Week 4
January 1999, Week 3
January 1999, Week 2
January 1999, Week 1
December 1998, Week 5
December 1998, Week 4
December 1998, Week 3
December 1998, Week 2
December 1998, Week 1
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November 1998, Week 4
November 1998, Week 3
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November 1998, Week 1
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October 1998, Week 4
October 1998, Week 3
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